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rmuir

Social climber

From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.

Sep 15, 2013 - 04:03pm PT

Hahahaha, I went on sport climbing trips to Kentucky and the New with Kamps, he was no ideological extremist.

So you say...

Some of us went to Bob's memorial service, and it was out of love, affection, and respect for a man who lived his life boldly, put up solidly uncompromising routes, and clearly understood the value and tradition of climbing. Many of us climbed and bouldered with him too and knew him to be far less of an ideological extremist than you!

You've got a lot of f*#king gall...

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Sep 15, 2013 - 04:09pm PT

So far as the fey, post modern take on the myth of the cowboy and so forth, I'd look that word up before you tossed it out there. Myth in your context means, "lacking factual basis." I have said all along that a run out is not a myth, it's a runout. And if you believe those who first put up said runouts are phonies and products of a cooked mythology, kindly go do an X route and give us your impression.

My main beef here is that people not accepting run out routes on the routes own terms are not being emotionally honest. They never say, "I looked up at that route and it scared the sh#t out of me, and I know I'd never muster the effort to try it and I felt that was unfair." Instead they sidestep the fact of their own experience and start ripping on the Kamps and Powells and Higgins' of the climbing world calling them vain, macho, mythic (phony) and so forth.

If we took your terror of the runout as a starting point, we might have a conversation. If your starting point is that those who originally ran the rope are deficient, deluded, childish and false, then you're going to get called out as a poultroon every time because you're hiding your emotional truth, which should be the FIRST thing said. Just as I said it: When I first looked up at routes like Jonah and Harm's Way they scared the sh#t out of me and I knew they were way over my head. That's the starting point right there. Not ripping Bob Kamps, RIP, and the original run out crew.

JL

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2013 - 04:21pm PT

Joe's out?

I thought he was going to tell us that we couldn't handle the truth.
In fact, I can hear the rant now,..

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be protected by men with bolts. Who's gonna bolt it? You?
I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the old ways and you curse the retrobolts. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that some retrobolts while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you WANT bolts on that wall. You NEED bolts on that wall.
We use words like safety and protection and survivability, we use these words as the backbone of a life spent protecting something. You use them as a punchline.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and slips onto the blanket of the very protection that I provide, and then QUESTIONS the manner in which I provide it.
I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way, otherwise I suggest you pick up a drill and place a bolt.

Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

(my guess,......... Joe isn't "gone" by a long shot)

17957

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Sep 15, 2013 - 05:01pm PT

Ron it would be nice if the "kids" did some exploration but it's a sad truth that the concept of exploration is lost on them. The majority of them seem to think that everything has been discovered already. Their claim is that everything worth climbing has already been climbed. There's nothing left for them. The reality is that they are even more afraid of exploring new ground then the run out routes that they claim are to dangerous to do.

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Sep 15, 2013 - 05:13pm PT

kids are putting up new routes every day in my neck of the woods. New generation sh#t.

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Sep 15, 2013 - 05:25pm PT

Larry that's nice, the way it should be. Not so much here. Lot's of retro bolts showing up in the past few years. Pretty sad considering the location. There's still virgin summits you can walk to in a day but instead of making that their focus the concentration has been adding bolts to the most traveled rock lines in the area. Crack in the Woods and Sunshine Buttress are prime examples

johnkelley

climber

Anchorage Alaska

Sep 15, 2013 - 05:26pm PT

Larry ever check out the Doloris near Dove Creek. I wonder how many retro bolts have showed up on the routes I did there?

rmuir

Social climber

From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.

Sep 15, 2013 - 05:30pm PT

I'm out.

and

Ok now I'm out,

Pity... I guess we kept the kid up past his bedtime.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Sep 15, 2013 - 05:36pm PT

From what I've seen, and I'm in a climbing gym at least 3 times a weeks working out, the "average" climber of today would technically have been a star in my generation. And more than a few - women included - are doing big trad routes like El Cap and so forth, and going to the Creek and crushing cracks, and high balling the sh#t out of things. So this business about being scared to death of museum climbs seems strange to me, even though no one has yet come clean about their fear, and instead have settled behind Joe's "logical" arguments or the faked and/or "mythical" machismo and glaring character flaws of the old farts.

But if those old routes are going to be bolted up, there's really no one to stop it. If that's where climbing is going, that's where it's going.

JL

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 15, 2013 - 06:04pm PT

Pfffft, dozens of bolts have been added to routes I put up (and then of course blamed on ME).

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Sep 15, 2013 - 06:14pm PT

John I floated the Dolores but not climbed. Looked cool though. There is so much virgin rock around here.
I don't know of any retro bolting around here except the extra bolt I put on Ancient Art due to the changing of the route but so far no one has complained.
There have been some mini bolt wars out at potash mainly due to the wAy a route was put up.
Yawn. I've got better things to do then get mad about what other climbers are doing.

Words From On High

Mountain climber

Virginia

Sep 15, 2013 - 09:41pm PT

The wall was the ambition: the style became the obsession. Virginity had fallen out of vogue with the virtual extinction of the unclimbed summit.

Alex MacIntyre, The Shishapangma Expedition page 21

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 15, 2013 - 09:48pm PT

Jhedge is definatly comming off as a whack job and i doubt that anyone at this point is thinking that his giberish is the way of the future.

I put tons of time, effort and money into my routes and they are as perfect of an adventure as I can create when I am done with them. They have spice in the right places and gear in the right places. Mess with my routes and we will have to have a talk. I actually had to do that this summer. Some self important crusader save the rock type cleaned my pins from an obscure 11a R rt that goes over a roof because he decided that they were not nessicary as you can get some micro gear in there as well. Turns out that he did not even know the rt went over the roof. He thought the pins were for the 5.8 that traverses under the roof. I ended up soloing up 75ft of pretty steep sustained 5.7 to where he had his rope solo TR anchor and had a little very polite chat to make sure that none of my other fixed gear was going to be chopped... the upside is that I now have a good excuse to retro bolt my own route that has only been led twice. When I get arround to it I will add one bolt to replace the bad pins and gaurenteed it will get climbed regularly ;)

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Sep 15, 2013 - 10:38pm PT

There are several different arguments woven in to the posts on this thread. The first is centered on the long-standing rule that the FA’s style is maintained, the second is based on riffs of Joe’s notion that the FA run-outs are frauds because the FA parties were too talented and it’s not fair, and the third by the climbers who want to climb good routes but are not interested in run-outs.

Personally, I think that maintaining the FA style is the only sensible rule because nothing else comes close to being so simple and “fair.” But it is only a start: there are many routes that have been “fixed” and bolts added, however, apparently there are many climbers who want more routes to do that are otherwise blocked because they are run-out. I have a good concept of the climbing community in the 1970s but not now, and I accept that things change: we took the aid out of routes without using pins and expected that subsequent ascents would follow the same style—to hell with the those old farts who nailed the route.

I have pointed out up-thread that the FA rule is only enforceable by the community that is currently climbing—eventually those of us who did the FA will no longer have even a faint say on changes to the routes. After reading the posts on this thread, I have decided to accept on face-value that, at least in Tuolumne, too few routes with good protection exist for the current generation of climbers. I don’t know if this is true, but some climbers who have posted believe it, so I accept that it as a valid point of view. I know that in the early 70s, routes were run-out as a stylist choice, but I accept that this may have been pushed too far after the 70s into moderate route territory and it rankles climbers who want closely placed protection. So, what to do?

Here is a suggestion:

Create a list of climbs in Tuolumne with the intent of training younger climbers to lead with more serious run-outs. This should account for difficulty, distance above the last protection, and the danger if someone falls. Think of Chris’ “Road to the Nose.” Let the goal be BY. If there are gaps in the this progression, or too few routes to satisfy the number of climbers, identify run-out routes that would otherwise fit into the progression, get the permission of the FA party, and add bolts to existing routes and close the gap. Create lots of opportunities for younger climbers to climb the way they want while also nudging them to take an interest in the notion that clip-ups are not the only way to have fun. The intent is to close the gap between the head skills to climb run-out leads and the understanding that “museum” climbs were originally climbed to enhance the climbing experience and are fun.

It does not seem to me to be fair or sustainable for young climbers to be thwarted in having fun, in the style they way they want. If those of us who found the pleasures of run-out leads want to entice new generations, we need to work to make the climbing experience more enticing and make it relatively easy to allow those climbers to aspire to the pleasure of leading a long way out.

With this is an incremental approach that does not try to establish a end-all solution, it should provides a way for the current climbing community to a path to establish where they want to draw the line on run-out climbing. It also avoids the immediate rap-bolting of BY (I cannot see any reason why retrobolting on all routes is not the outcome based on half the posts on this thread, especially routes where bolts were placed on aid).

If the current community decides that lots of bolts on all the routes is the way to go, then no one in the climbing community will stop them from adding bolts and arguing about how many is enough—maybe the National Park Service but no museum climbers like me—but at least there will have been a chance to persuade younger climbers to aspire to the pleasures of run-out leads.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 15, 2013 - 10:44pm PT

Lots of bolts can suck just as bad as not enough bolts... 5.8 slab generaly 4 bolts per 50m pitch is only PG rateing not R and gets climbed every weekend here in the North east.

kpinwalla2

Social climber

Sep 16, 2013 - 12:01am PT

Not sure why "lots of" bolts can ever suck as bad as having too few (or suck at all IMHO). Someone climbing a slab who thinks it has too many bolts always has the option of skipping clips and upping the fear factor, if they wish. Someone climbing the route she perceives has having too few bolts does NOT have the comparable option of adding points of protection to the climb. And just what is it about "lots of" bolts on a route that can make it "suck"? Is just a visual thing, or that by allowing more folks to climb a route it deprives others of the elitist experience they covet? BTW I think some routes should stand forever as mental test pieces, but IMHO those routes should be on the fringe, not the norm.

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Sep 16, 2013 - 12:09am PT

Less important than the frequency of bolts for clipping, a ladder of bolts eliminates the route finding questions that make slab and face climbs so interesting...