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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 31, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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If a person steps up to try such an ascent... This hasn't happened yet. That's the whole god damn point.
A ground up ascent has, however, happened while clipping CW's bolts.
Therefore, following tradition, the guy who actually leads the thing W/O rehearsing it from a TR, W/O clipping the extra bolts - he/she should be the one to decide if the bolts stay or go. This person is not TB, and not CW. They both used a TR to preview the route.
If using a TR to preview the route before placing aid gear is in fact the chosen ethic going forward for this climb, then this [f*#king joke of a..] style needs to be made crystal clear on MP.com and/or any guidebook for those considering the route. Anything less continues the fraud.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 31, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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my reply to Chris' article:
Hey Chris. Thanks for your honest reply, I appreciate that you want to have a conversation with your community. That shows maturity and respect, good things.
However, the peice you wrote started off lambasting those detractors for calling you out, then ends with your admittance that you screwed up. It reads like one of those apologies you hear all the time "I'm sorry your feelings got hurt."
In the end, it REALLY isn't a big deal - it's a lone route that wasn't looked at often, and likely won't be climbed too often.
Keep this in mind - nobody reads Supertopo. Nobody cares. saying "In a matter of a few days I'd become a national paragon of insolence, brashness, selfishness and everything else that's wrong with climbers today. " sounds like you are trying to be the victim. You put some work into a route without asking a first ascentionist, got called out, life goes on.
Anyway, peace be with you good sir.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 31, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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GDavis,
stop trying to bring closure to this thread. It hasn't even reached 500 posts yet. Just wait when it gets a political slant:-)
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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democrats, but they climb harder grades.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 31, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
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Republicans tend to be aid climbers.
Always needing outside assistance to move forward.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 31, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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CW's Daily Camera column seems to be par for the course for the guy--he obviously read the ST and MP comments, but he misrepresents them to make it seem like active climbers are universally opposed to his adding bolts (his adding an actual anchor to the climb, and the fact that it's unclear if Thom ever climbed above the last pin that he repeatedly lowered off of to his strangely off-to-the-side anchor, is conveniently ignored).
The ST thread speaks for itself; it's clear lots of old farts (and some young farts) who may or may not be active climbers got their panties in a bunch, mostly on general principle and they carefully avoid considering the specific, whacky issues raised by Thom's "ascent." But most ST commentators who are actively climbing (of any age) seem to be in favor of turning Archangel into a "normal" climb, rather than allowing it to linger as a hybrid-rap-bolted-pinned-whatever-elsed-TR-rehearsed monstrosity that no one has climbed in 25 years, and will now exist in a very tenuous state as no one really knows what aid gear can/should be placed on subsequent ascents. At least some people took the time to carefully explain why Thom's style of ascent is "incoherent."
Even if you don't agree with my assessment of what "most" of ST thinks, CW's characterization of the ST thread is highly misleading--the added bolts got a lot of support from experienced, strong, active climbers.
I guess CW thinks it's fun and good material for his column to paint himself as the "bad boy" who's now reformed and back in the climbing community's good graces, and gee isn't this an interesting story that's all worked out so well now.
It's similar to his comments about how he tried to research whether Archangel had in fact been climbed--he showed first-class namedropping skills (just as in his DC column) in describing his "research," but inexplicably didn't try to contact Thom or Richard Rossiter. Nothing he's said is actually false (as far as I know), but anyone who just reads what CW writes would have a seriously warped view of what actually happened.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 31, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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I don't think there is anything wrong with being passionate about something you enjoy.
Panty bunching, maybe, but I would gladly eat Lockers daughters panties anyday, despite her having a little doggie tail poking up.
Call me panty muncher.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 31, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
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Nom, nom, nom.
Taste like oysters.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 31, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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Locker, that's a terrible selfie.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 31, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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I'm reading this thread, hoping to listen and learn. It's not my intent to beat the horse any longer, but it's difficult to stay silent when folks write stuff like this:
Or, just go bolt it and don't tell anyone. Pre- posting for approval on a sh#t show thread like this would guarantee routes would never be maintained. Bolts are getting chopped either way.
... The lesson seems to be respect the rock by some nebulous set of ever-changing rules ...
First, there's a big difference between retrobolting and rebolting. Perhaps this distinction is lost to a younger generation?
As for respecting the rock... No, that is not a nebulous ever-changing rule. It's pretty easy to grasp, and should be easy to follow as well. Place as few bolts as possible--there, not a nebulous rule, and it's been the meme of route activists for generations.
Just because a climb doesn't get repeated for a decade or two doesn't mean that it needs to be made available to the masses. Perhaps if the FA of Archangel were better known, others would have tried to headpoint the test piece, or perhaps not. That said, the traffic on a route is not an indicator of the quality, or usefulness, of the route.
The rational that some people give to have all routes turned into sport routes does sometimes astonish me.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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K-man wrote: The rational that some people give to have all routes turned into sport routes does sometimes astonish me.
Problem with this route is that he (Thom) used sport climbing tactics without the benefits of leaving the fixed gear in place for others. It still isn't clear how many pins were used on the ascent and where the route actually stopped/ended.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 31, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
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But most ST commentators who are actively climbing (of any age) seem to be in favor of turning Archangel into a "normal" climb,
That's a big stretch. You actually don't have much idea about who's actively climbing or not.
And now "normal" climbs are bolted up gym jobs?
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jul 31, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
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Once again I would like to remind folks of the fact that Mission and myself did step up to the plate and attempt to lead this ground up ,on gear ,circa 26 years ago using the one piton that I remember was in place and the one bolt. We reached a high point of about 25 ft. From the belay (about at the roof or just above it) and retreated because of lack of adequate climbing skills (weak)and protection. I am not trying to say anything except that we got to that point on the gear we had at the time and some good old fashioned pulling down. Back then climbers were more willing to trust pitons and also knew that pitons were reliable protection and have been used on many first "free" ascents and were often placed while on lead and in free climbing mode. We did not even consider top roping it preferring the thrill of launching into the unknown. Back then most climbers accepted the risks of climbing and that the minute you left the ground you were on your own and that nobody forced you to leave the ground.
I would also like to ask if its true that in recent times the current tactics for hard trad climbing involves extensive top rope rehearsal and checking out the gear placements extensively also prior to sending a hard sketchy lead? I realize that the gear is not left in place before the lead but that the knowledge of each placement is wired. That is obviously the difference in Thom B's lead of Archangel that the gear was left in place. Also instead of calling it top roping the trend is to call it " head pointing" which sounds much cooler but is the same thing in the end.
I am only posting here to add some history about the climb and an other opinion , I really do not care that Archangel got bolted and I am glad that Thom and Chris are working out . Enough of this for me ,I am going climbing. Peace and Martinis , Steve Sangdahl from an expensive shack,on a dirt road, in Eldo.
P.s.Yes , Mission and I failed but we had a great time trying to climb it.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
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Top roped, rap placed bolts creating artificial run outs are not normal anymore.
I propose this style and other hybrid 80s variations thereof be called the Lycra-point™.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
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Ron wrote: I have purged this from my system.
But like a moth to a flame he continues to post, and post...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jul 31, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
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The thread just hit #5.11. . .only one more to go!
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
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512 posts for some retro-bolted choss heap . . . WTF?
Glad it's the kid's though, the kid's are alright.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
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Can't wait for the movie. Will Chris W play himself? Who will play Thom?
I'm thinking Justin timber lake for Chris & Christopher walken for Thom. Can't wait!
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J Q
Social climber
Boulder, Co
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Rap bolted run-outs are the f-in future! Where can I get a ticket?
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