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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I've been dealing with a bad case of stirrer elbow.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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interesting thread, as usual, JLP comes in and chips away at the apparent cluelessness of us old folk...
What's rare these days is finding a modern climber who gives a rip about 5.11 and under. The benchmark sandbags you all cite are generally only difficult on the onsight because they are odd. That is all. For a fit climber doing 12's everywhere else, these 11's will all go down in a few tries, at most. Yet again, ST.com demonstrates cluelessness for all that has happened in rock climbing since the 80's.
which I suspect is probably true. What would be a real contribution to this forum, perhaps in another thread, would be a description of "all that is happened in rock climbing since the 80's" written, by JLP, no doubt an interesting topic and one I am particularly interested in these days.
Pat Ament's history takes us up through 1999 or so...
...maybe we should just heed donini, but then again ECIYA tells us to be more-than-pathetic and renounce our "junk food climbing" addiction and train for real. I think Munge's trainer's advice is probably the best.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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Sort of amazing to watch how reactionary things are. First, I simply mentioned that in the 1970s, there were plenty of people who did 5.11 but few all-around folk who did all disciplines. I noticed that nowadays, while most all of us have gotten much better at overhanging face climbing, the percentage of all around trad climbers who cranked at the relatively modest level of 5.11 didn't seem to be any higher.
There was no mention or claim that there were NO 5.11 trad all arounders out there, or that the old were better than the new, or any attempt to make a case for BITD centric ego stroking. This, then gets twisted into a polemic of me supposedly dissing the new breed, to which I know nothing about, despite having just done a hardback photo book with stories from Honnold, Caldwell, Rodin, Hill, Potter, et al.
So we start out with the observation that the percentage of all around trad climbers doesn't seem to have risen much over the years, to the accusation that I am blowing smoke up my generation's ass and am totally out of touch with what's been happening in the climbing world since 1980.
Yowza!
JL
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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What would be a real contribution to this forum, perhaps in another thread, would be a description of "all that is happened in rock climbing since the 80's" written, by JLP, no doubt an interesting topic and one I am particularly interested in these days.
Besides being dumbed down to benefit the lowest common denominator?
Curt
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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....and it goes like this. Round and round and.......just like this thread.
must say though....I'm with Largo.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I noticed that nowadays, while most all of us have gotten much better at overhanging face climbing, the percentage of all around trad climbers who cranked at the relatively modest level of 5.11 didn't seem to be any higher.
Just to clarify - things went downhill when you (and others) declared the ability to onsight a pile of relic sandbags from the past to be the mark of the "all arounder". It's not. That whole line of reasoning, quite popular here, is a joke, really.
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raymond phule
climber
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"relic sandbags"....IE routes done with stunning style and the average joe today is scared shytless to even look at them. popular excuses include : Stupid route, dangerous route, relic sandbag...
Why is do you talk about average joe? I doubt he did those routes in the seventies and I know that he didn't do those routes at the end of the nineties. It really is not that strange that he does not do those routes today.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nice thread everyone are talking about completely different things...
So you think that the opening post was about average joe?
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raymond phule
climber
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I don't remember JLP saying that but maybe he has.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Why not contribute your own list then? I did, above.
Have you contributed anything to this thread other than personal attacks? You sound like a noob with nothing of value to contribute. It seems you can't process the argument, so you go after the poster - like a 4th grader.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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Just to clarify - things went downhill when you (and others) declared the ability to onsight a pile of relic sandbags from the past to be the mark of the "all arounder". It's not. That whole line of reasoning, quite popular here, is a joke, really.
---
Fine. We take you at face value, that you're not merely flaming and that you have some criteria for your convictions. I'll go with that. Granted that we are talking about trad, NOT sport climbing here, what exactly, is a theoretical or provisional list of TRAD climbs that you feel would NOT be a joke in delineating a MODERN all around TRAD climber.
In other words, if you feel that my list of trad climbs were "relic sandbags," kindly provide an updated list that might better represent the modern all around trad leader, as you know him or her.
JL
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steve shea
climber
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In fact JL's op merely suggested that MASTERY of all techniques required to lead trad wide to thin, is very difficult to achieve. Mastery! It goes on to say a master 5.12 leader is a rare bird. I think it is true. Mastery of a discipline is not an occaisional grovel up just to tick a route.
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Degaine
climber
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Actually steve, it reads:
The climber who has mastered all of those techniques at the 5.11 level is exceptional
And many of us are stating that, while a good climber, the 5.11 trad leader is not exceptional.
Regarding the rarity of the 5.12 trad leader based on the OP definition, well, I'd probably have to agree.
I never received an answer to my question (though perhaps it's implied in the OP), were the guys in Yosemite referred to in the quote capable of onsighting hard grit in GB?
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Degaine
climber
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Ron,
You're talking about the elite, and my understanding of the OP is that we were not talking about the elite.
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steve shea
climber
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I think the 5.11 trad leader who has mastered all climbing at that level as to be a walk in the park is very difficult to achieve. I did not know many that had BITD. Now I think although more common it is still tough. 5.12 more so. This is the point, a master would be elite.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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But if you ever want to speed climb a big wall, or climb the legendary routes in the Alps or Patagonia etc., on-sight ability remains a vital skill.
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The myths continue. Onsighting and speed have nothing to do with each other. Onsighting is the slowest form of climbing most will do. Speed climbing = aid climbing. Onsights of the free routes on El Cap, for example, haven't happened yet. Freeing them under a certain time mark - daylight or 24 hr - is generally a highly paced and logistical affair - and generally rehearsed. A strong free climber with good gear placement and "wall" skills will indeed have the potential to move much faster when they start pulling on gear, but it's not a given unless they've practiced climbing that way. The guys that are among the best at climbing this way aren’t necessarily among the best free nor aid climbers.
You silly rabbit. "On-sight" here means, "I have never seen the route before. I am climbing it "on sight," with no rehearsal. The ability to simply walk up to a climb and dick it, any style.
It's also totally mythological that speed wall climbing is always researsed. Dale B. and I did the 2nd one day ascent of El Cap on a route we'd never climbed before, and that was 500 years ago. Also, you say that the guys who are French Freeing El Cap, for example, in record time, are not amongst the best trad climber - kindly give an example.
The problem with your reasoning is that is it not entirely grounded in real world facts, and is full of half truths. I mentioned a list of routes and some chime in and say for the modern dude those are nothing - but there is no one personally claiming to have done those routes, or ones like them, be they 40 or 5 years old, who is saying that at all. Or the long list of people who could easily march up to Basket Dome, solo Basket Case and call it a total joke. Name a single person who has actually done this. It's all just smack.
They tell me that climbing is roughly 20 times as popular as it was in 1975. Let's say that back then there were 500 people who could lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines, from English Grit to Yosemite off width to Black Canyon mixed, to run out Tahquitz face. That would mean that today, given that the 5.11 all around trad leader is common as some insist, that it's no big deal, there would have to be at least 20,000 climbers who could with the greatest of ease dick all the routes on my original list and call them "laughable." The amount of 10,000 would simply represent the same percentage as there were in 1975. 20,000 is only a two fold increase in percentage.
I'll bet you that if we got everyone on Supertopo to list all the people they knew who have lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines - thin to wide, face to chimneys - we might muster a list of 3,000 or maybe 4,000 folks - hardly ubiquitous in a sport in which several million practice regularly.
JL
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Now I'm not gonna read this whole thread. But I will, without knowledge of what's been said before, state unabashedly that it's a rare bird who masters 5.11 OW. 5.12 in that discipline are those who are rarer still.
So right there we have hit some sort of mark.
5.12 sport climbers are a dime a dozen. Heck, even I at one point or another could muster that grade, and be me far from rare...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I posted a list above, a few days ago, of climbs on quite a few modern to-do lists, that would require quite a variety of skills.
However, there's no list that defines a climber. I've seen, followed and created so many ticklists - I have yet to complete a single one.
I'm certain a balsy but strong kid in his 2nd year could make a "sh#t-show" send of your list (I have names..), another with 30 yrs of "experience" basically just recreating might be super silky smooth in their comfort zone, but melt at half the standard of the same list. Who's the master?
My answer would simply be the more you know about climbing, the better you'll be able to recognize and appreciate it when you see it being done well.
Michael Loughman has a memorable few paragraphs in his book "Learning to Rock Climb" about finding a mentor/teacher - that you have to watch them climb - on hard rock. I would agree. This sport is ALL about the movement - of finding and setting gear, running it out, or sending 5.14 on bolts. You'll only know it after you've seen it. You have to watch them climb, and it has to be on something "hard". They will make it look easy.
How hard is "hard"? All I know for certain is both the mean performance and the standards of mean difficulty have risen considerably since the 70's. Big time! Sorry, I don't have a specific number. Sometime in the 80's a few decided the "onsight" style of climbing was limiting the expression of maximum performance on rock. Things moved up from there, both redpoint and onsight.
The "all arounder" is simply a function of their interests, motivation and time devoted to improving. It's something that gets "deeper and wider" over time, not specific routes completed.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Also, you say that the guys who are French Freeing El Cap, for example, in record time, are not amongst the best trad climber - kindly give an example. Ummmm...Hans Florine? Definitely not in the same catagory as the partners he chooses.
Back to work.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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I think the "finding and setting gear" on a full range of 5.11's would cull the group of climbers by quite a bit. (and I'm not even mentioning the type of gear used).
I think some of those guys that stood for unthinkable time on nothing slab in their EB's while hand drilling a bolt still go in my book as having some of the biggest cojones around.
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