ACA upheld!

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Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 30, 2012 - 10:41am PT
Cragman...and here is your guy Romney...

GIBSON: ”Governor … you imposed tax penalties in Massachusetts?”

ROMNEY: ”Yes, we said, look, if people can afford to buy it, either buy the insurance or pay your own way; don’t be free-riders.”
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2012 - 10:50am PT
Cletus
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:10am PT
A couple days now for the opinion to set in and I am convinced that it was a victory for conservatives, since the way ACA was upheld took a blow at Congress's power to legislate under the Commerce Clause.

Conservatives See Silver Lining in Health Ruling

I really appreciate the well thought out comments about the SCOTUS opinion and its implications in this thread. I'm wondering if this was a "lose a battle, win the war"-type event.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:16am PT
I am convinced that it was a victory for conservatives


yep

they are celebrating like crazy, cheering the decision

because after all, the individual mandate is a conservative idea which champions "individual responsibility", a good conservative principle

In fact the conservative nominee, Mittens Romney, signed the identical healthcare law in Mass, and bragged about it

so yes, this IS a victory for conservatives

yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:28am PT
You must watch that Rachel Maddow show. She's obsessed with how this was implemented in MA under Romney. Anyway, if you divorce the actual Act--I know, hard to do--the legal implications of the opinion are favorable for a more conservative environment for federal legislation.

It doesn't seem like conservatives are celebrating like crazy here on this thread. I guess that's my point. Maybe they should be.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:29am PT
As a radical centrist the more I hear about Robert's reasoning the more I like it.

IMO yes the government shouldn't be "forcing" people to do things that should be a choice. But also yes if people aren't contributing to healthcare costs they should pay a tax to help do so. If we didn't treat people in ERs for free when they have no money or insurance then it would be different. But we can't reasonably deny people help when it's needed. So since everyone can get health care they should either buy insurance or pay a tax.

I grates on me every time I hear Nancy Pelosi say health care is a right, because it makes it sound like anyone should get full health care for free. But really access to affordable health care is the right. The idea of withholding health care from someone in prison so they die was the example that changed my thinking on this, and made me realize access to health care is a right.

I didn't understand why they conservative right was so up in arms about the ACA. It keeps insurance private. It does things they claim they want like not denying coverage because people get sick. It supposedly forces people to buy health insurance limiting freedom, but the alternative is people get care for free at ERs, I'd rather have people pay for health insurance, or pay the tax/penalty than have them be free riders that I'm paying for. If more people have coverage they get preventative care and costs should be better controlled. BUT then I found it that taxes on high incomes and capital gains paid for part of it. AH HA! So you have some of the 0.1% who are against any increase in taxes to them directing their right wing spin machine to convince all the rank and file righties that this is horrible, socialism when in fact it isn't.

Can anyone on the right tell me what is REALLY so bad about the ACA. Not BS talking points about how it's designed to cripple insurance and make everyone go to single payer some day, but according to the ideas of what the provisions of the law are actually supposed to do why is it so bad?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:39am PT
"Anyway, if you divorce the actual Act--I know, hard to do--the legal implications of the opinion are favorable for more conservative federal legislation."

It is interesting to consider the underlying motivation that Roberts had in his decision...at first blush, it's being played as a betrayal by the Right, and 'about time' by the Left. His rationale must have underpinnings to it that aren't evident in his ruling...though speculating on this risks pointless conspiracy theories, it still intrigues me.


"It doesn't seem like conservatives are celebrating like crazy here on this thread. I guess that's my point."

Is that an attempt at irony or sarcasm?
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:40am PT
I didn't understand why they conservative right was so up in arms about the ACA. It keeps insurance private. It does things they claim they want like not denying coverage because people get sick. It supposedly forces people to buy health insurance limiting freedom, but the alternative is people get care for free at ERs, I'd rather have people pay for health insurance, or pay the tax/penalty than have them be free riders that I'm paying for. If more people have coverage they get preventative care and costs should be better controlled. BUT then I found it that taxes on high incomes and capital gains paid for part of it. AH HA! So you have some of the 0.1% who are against any increase in taxes to them directing their right wing spin machine to convince all the rank and file righties that this is horrible, socialism when in fact it isn't.

Can anyone on the right tell me what is REALLY so bad about the ACA. Not BS talking points about how it's designed to cripple insurance and make everyone go to single payer some day, but according to the ideas of what the provisions of the law are actually supposed to do why is it so bad?

Amen. I hate how politically divided we are as a nation at this point. "Divide and conquer" is a saying for a reason... It makes us weak.

Having said that, I know it's hard to divorce politics and judge something like this objectively. With the deficit, increasing gov't spending on social programs doesn't seem prudent to me--I guess that's a conservative value--and we need to cut spending across the board. However, I think we should also increase taxes, especially for higher brackets. I hear consistently from wealthy liberals that they aren't going to suffer if they have to give another couple dozen thousand dollars to the federal gov't. (And, that's a liberal view. I guess it depends on how the right is implemented, hence this debate.)

I do think that given we are a first-world nation, access to affordable healthcare is a right for everyone. (I think certain rights are elastic depending on what type of infrastructure you've been able to establish as a society; here, access to healthcare is a right because it's a possibility. I feel similarly about education.) Is that a liberal or conservative value? Not sure.

In any case, just because the Act was written by a democrat doesn't mean it's imprudent, unfair, or invalid. The fact that the individual mandate was based on Romney's MA law supports this assertion. In addition, the opinion upholding the act has narrowed Congress's power to legislate issues affecting states, not expressly reserved for the federal gov't. That should be a positive result for the conservative right, prompted by just this Act, which they seem to hate.
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:42am PT
"It doesn't seem like conservatives are celebrating like crazy here on this thread. I guess that's my point."

Is that an attempt at irony or sarcasm?

I'm just trying to make people think rather than react.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:43am PT
Universal Health Care is such a way out, crazy, socilalist concept that 32 out of the 33 developed countries in the World have it with America being the lone exception.
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:45am PT
Universal Health Care is such a way out, crazy, socilalist concept that 32 out of the 33 developed countries in the World have it with America being the lone exception.

We aren't number one for no reason!

Oh wait, we're not number one anymore. In pretty much everything. Hmmm.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:49am PT
Oh wait, we're not number one anymore. In pretty much everything. Hmmm.

well, we are number one in the highest cost per patient of healthcare service delivered
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 30, 2012 - 11:54am PT
We are also the only first world country with the death penalty....american exceptionalism at its "best."
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
I don't think it's fair to judge how much anyone "loves" the country...even though I understand, Dr. F, "Republicans hate Obama more than they love America" is just supposed to be a political statement.

It's pretty obvious to me that most residents of the States care about the health of the nation. Their political values are just those that they think are best for the country and their own individual well-being. (There are plenty who only care about their own individual well-being, but I don't think for purposes of this discussion, we need to go there.)

The issue is not who loves the country more or who wants to ruin so-and-so. Because no one wants to ruin the country. I am always insulted when someone implies I don't love my nation just because of what I think is right. These types of implied accusations are part of the breakdown of productive political discourse in our country and they will contribute to our downfall. That is for sure.
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Jed Purdy is one of my favorite people and thinkers. This article he wrote makes some good points, too, coming back to the discussion of whether the court's opinion was a "victory" and for whom.

How to Read the Healthcare Opinion

Law happens on a field of pain and death. For all their dry distinctions and sonorous tone, judges' opinions set people free and send them to die, grant them security or leave them deprived.

This was acutely true when the Supreme Court ruled on the Affordable Care Act, the most important piece of social legislation in perhaps two generations. The ACA is flawed, but it moves tens of millions of people from insecurity toward reliable care. It also makes our crazy system of funding health care somewhat more rational. Striking it down would have been the most egregious piece of judicial politics since the Supreme Court went to war against FDR's New Deal -- and lost -- in the mid-1930's.

Anyone who cares about fairness and good sense in social policy, then, should count today a victory -- as most progressives are doing.

At the same time, we should be clear on this: our relief is much too close to "Thank God he didn't hit me." The Supreme Court, on its own previously announced principles, had no business coming so close to invalidating the ACA.

Justice Roberts's opinion makes him a hero for a day to many liberals. It also moves the Court, at a stately pace, toward an aggressively right-wing view of the federal government's power. Moreover, it keeps the Court at the very heart of issues where it does not belong. For all its obvious appeal, it is self-aggrandizing and far more radical in its reasoning than in its outcome. That reasoning may have serious consequences down the road.

Roberts accepted that Congress cannot require individuals to purchase health insurance under its power to regulate commerce among the states. The power to regulate commerce, he argued, does not extend to the power to mandate purchases. On his logic, if Congress had this power, it could require people to buy cars or healthy food -- the infamous broccoli example.

This may not matter much in practice, because Roberts upheld the requirement to purchase insurance under the separate Congressional power to tax, by interpreting as taxation the fee for not purchasing health care. It is very hard to imagine a law Congress would ever want to pass that could not survive this scrutiny. Therefore, the ruling on the Commerce power may be mainly symbolic. For nearly 20 years, the Court's conservatives have insisted on limits to the Commerce power while not doing much of consequence with those limits. This opinion may be another of those rhetorical rulings.

That said, consider the way the Roberts opinion envisions the world. We are governed by politicians who want to force us into gym memberships and stuff broccoli in our faces. The democratic process is not enough to protect us from such palpably unpopular laws. We need the Supreme Court, wielding the Constitution, to protect our liberty to spend our money where we like, and not elsewhere.

To accept that these are urgent constitutional concerns, you need a very mistrustful sense of government. You also need to see consumer liberty as a touchstone of American freedom. For almost eighty years, constitutional law has assumed that Congress and state legislatures can be trusted to make economic judgments (better trusted than courts, anyway) under democratic scrutiny, and that individual economic freedom is not a constitutional liberty. To be swayed by the Roberts opinion, you need to squint at the world in quite the opposite way.

Purely as a country boy from West Virginia, I am libertarian enough to like the idea that Congress can't make me buy things from corporations. As a student of constitutional law, though, I am obliged to say that Roberts's argument has force only in a Tea Party view of government and personal liberty, and that the opinion's rhetorical embrace of Tea Party constitutionalism should worry people who think complex problems like health care unavoidably require complex -- and politically possible -- solutions. Congress adopted the individual mandate to deal the insurance companies into the political bargain, as conservative reformers had long urged. If not for the saving thread of the taxing power, Roberts's opinion would have left no solution to the health-care crisis that was both politically viable and constitutionally permitted. To repeat, the Court had no business coming so close to gutting the law, and the fact that it did so, and is being celebrated for withholding the knife, is a mark of how far the public has accepted aggressive judicial review of legislation that should not be constitutionally suspect.

The other major part of the Roberts opinion held that the federal government cannot withhold Medicaid funds from states as a punishment for failing to adopt the ACA's expansion of Medicaid eligibility to 133% of the federal poverty line. Roberts argued that the threat to withdraw Medicaid funding is "a gun to the head" that impermissibly coerces the states. The idea is that the federal government cannot directly tell the states which laws to pass, and giving them an offer they cannot afford to refuse amounts to dictating their Medicaid legislation.

For many decades, Congress has been influencing state legislation with fiscal carrots and sticks -- offering money to fund policies it likes, withholding funds when states don't pass desired laws. If you wonder why every state sets the drinking age at 21, it's because they would lose federal highway funds if they set it lower. The Court has previously made a few muted noises about possible limits to this use of Congress's "spending power" to influence states, but this is the first time it has actually set a limit to that power. This is a new, and potentially big, roadblock to federal policy-setting. It intercedes the Court between Congress and the states and guarantees future challenges to spending legislation. How much it will matter to the ACA's anti-poverty effect depends on how many states will simply refuse to expand Medicaid, now that they know they can't lose their existing funding for doing so. The number may be quite large, which means more people without health coverage and more people crossing state lines in search of more generous care -- never a good solution, and a large part of the reason Congress aimed for uniformity.

Bottom line: Justice Roberts saved the constitutionality of a humane and centrist piece of social legislation. Gutting it would have been radical, and it is astonishing that four justices would have done so. (I'll post later on the dissents.) He also confirmed the view of the Constitution that made the attack on that law seem plausible. That constitutional view is itself radical. It affirms that the Court belongs at the heart of this issue, and guarantees its future role in similar controversies. Progressives should not be grateful for this.

Every law student learns, on the first day of constitutional law, a brilliant victory that Chief Justice John Marshall achieved in the touchstone case of Marbury v. Madison. While giving his opponents what they wanted -- declining to award a federal patronage position to one of his fellow Federalists -- he announced the Supreme Court's power to invalidate federal legislation on constitutional grounds. He hugely expanded the Court's power, moved it in the direction of his constitutional vision, and did so in a case where those most likely to oppose him were mollified by the result.

John Roberts was an outstanding law student. He has not forgotten his early lessons. The rest of us should not forget them, either.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old Broken Down Climber
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
...mark these words,,,there will be MILLIONS upon MILLIONS that will have their health coverage supplied by their companies go bu-bye...


As it should.

There is no reason for employers to pay for their employee's health insurance. That makes as much sense as mandating that my cable company must pay for my auto insurance.

Health insurance should be purchased by the individual.

And now, under the ACA, MILLIONS upon MILLIONS will finally be able to purchase health insurance.
yosguns

climber
Durham, NC
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
...mark these words,,,there will be MILLIONS upon MILLIONS that will have their health coverage supplied by their companies go bu-bye...

I don't understand this prediction. Please explain--I am probably missing something (not even trying to be cheeky).

Doesn't the ACA require companies with over thirty employees to provide full-time employees health insurance? Is this a change from before? Also, does the act change incentives to companies to provide their employees health insurance? I don't think so. If what I assume is true, why would a necessary result of the ACA be that employers decide not to provide health insurance when none of the reasons they provided health insurance in the past have changed?

EDIT: Alright, that is like my tenth post in the last hour. Think I need to give it a rest. Will check back later.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
My friends company will be terminating their plan for nine people, he will increase their salaries by some amount, but less than the current health premium. Companies over 50 must provide a health plan.

well then your imaginary "friend" will pocket that saving as additional personal profit


cite the section and language of the ACA that changes or "costs" an employer with nine employees he currently provides health insurance for to his business detriment

I will wait, I know you have carefully read, as I have, the entire 2700 page bill, twice.

Chapter and verse please

should be easy, IF you know what you are talking about
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
fatboy wrote: yosguns,

My friends company will be terminating their plan for nine people, he will increase their salaries by some amount, but less than the current health premium. Companies over 50 must provide a health plan.



TheTool


great news, that much closer to PO!!!
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Jun 30, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Oh wait, we're not number one anymore. In pretty much everything. Hmmm.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much true.


Curt
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