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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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The sushi joint in the higlands (squamish) is so popular you can barely squeeze into the place. I know for a fact Vancouverites make the 35 minute drive up just to eat there.
Soon enough they'll be serving the gondola roll, shaped like a sphere but still yummy and good for you.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 16, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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Raise your hands if you have ever had sex in a gondola.
Case closed, let the development proceed.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 16, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
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Yes everyone who lives in Vancouver farts 100's
Of course if you say you live in Vancouver you cant actually be from Surrey...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 16, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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Since there is some debate about what the view from up there will be, I should tell you what I've seen. Although if word of this gets out, the construction will probably start tomorrow, so y'all have to swear yourselves to secrecy.
I hiked up to the area around the top of Shannon Falls a few years ago with a friend. As we approached the water, I was a far enough ahead of him that we weren't talking, and with the ground being soft and springy, I wasn't making any noise as I rounded a corner to a view of...
Well, I suppose she was in her early twenties. Sitting on a big flat rock at the waters edge. Completely naked. She was sitting with her knees apart, and was staring down at her beaver with a look of stunned surprise. The look on her face was priceless: "What on earth is this? How did this thing get here?"
A male voice diverted her attention from her crotch, and I faded quietly back down the trail as she started to reply.
No idea what the story behind that look was, but if there was a gondola I'd sure ride it up to the top to see if she was still there.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
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The thing that many who are irked with Anders don't seem to realize is that specific and concrete objections to this plan require full access to information that is not accessible to the public, and that there are such things as libel laws out there. So, hypothetically, there could indeed be dark motives or lousy planning behind this idea, but who is going to demand effective freedom of information laws or payment for an army of forensic accountants, lawyers, etc. to investigate such a possibility? Occam's Razor is still an effective, albeit not infallible, tool to use in the absence of concrete evidence in these situations.
In the event that you are about to snicker about "conspiracy theories", I would appreciate a $1000 payment (each and in advance) for the names of cabinet ministers and/or premiers who have been forced from office for betrayal of the public trust in the last 50 years.
Maybe there is indeed something wrong with my opposition to this proposal but, with the projected 100-400K users of this gift to the tourists, and with the RIDICULOUS assumption that it runs non-stop for 365 days/year you are looking at 273 - almost 1100 riders/day, so double that number is probably a conservative guess for the operator to achieve his projected ridership. Also, if this plan succeeds, I would be happy to bet that this is only the beginning of development of the area.
Also, yes, I especially do object to the construction of for-profit facilities to help tourists get a good view from the high country - life isn't always fair. And for making the beauty of this area more accessible to children and 90 year-olds, gimme a break. What you are saying is make it accessible to people who can afford the price tag for the ride - and to make it easier for you guys to get at the areas around Mt. Habrich.
Here's a suggestion, although I confess that my apparently inadequate computer skills prevented me from locating a usable map of the park boundaries: why not pressure the current elected hacks to fix up the existing road to Habrich, and everyone's happy - except the developer.
If I still haven't made my point, I'll expect your full support for my plan to chisel holds and drill chicken bolts all over the Chief so that "average" climbers can get a great view on some of the finest rock climbs on the West Coast - the tourists will flock there in droves. And these "improvements" won't even be visible from the highway.
Finally, to give you an idea of what it's like for a nature-loving citizen of this nation to consider a visit to one of my (and your) parks AND who happens to be a bit lower down the feeding chain than many of you, it would cost me almost exactly the same rent that I'm paying for my apartment to spend an equivalent amount of time at the Ralph River campsite in Stratchcona Park - if I could snag a reservation and free transportation. I don't have the numbers at hand regarding the bite involved for parking myself at the base of the Chief, but a stay there plus the projected 30 bucks for a ride on the gondola wouldn't be an easy outlay either. Oddly enough, I don't live in a cardboard box - just one of the crappier areas of Courtenay.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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Hi Woz. Try not to let this hacking around get your blood pressure up; life's too short. I'm pretty sure it's a whopping $5.00/ night to camp at the bulletheads. You could "park" yourself there for $150/mo. Surely that's a deal, even by Courtenay standards. And you don't have to ride the tram if you don't want to. You can hike up , although it may take awhile. Probably like hiking the Chief a few times in a row....you'll love it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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No, Ghost - Anders doesn't need his ass kicked any more than you do (but didn't) for a stunt that you pulled many years ago in a provincial park. Perhaps I'm mistaken, though, and it wasn't you - in which case I offer you my sincerest apologies.
I'm not aware of having done anything too reprehensible in a Provincial Park, but no need to apologize. Let me know what the evil deed was and if it is mine, I'll own up to it.
As to the ass-kicking, I disagree. Not that I've got any kind of hate on for Anders, just that he was continually implying that the people involved in the project were engaged in something nefarious without ever providing evidence. That kind of "evidence", if presented in favor of this proposal, would have had him steaming mad, so there's really no excuse for him presenting it against. If it took some harsh words to wake him up, so be it.
And if you read back through everything I've said here, you'll see that I don't disagree that it all might be a giant scam. Or epically stupid in economic terms. But if one is to argue against it, one ought to present real evidence, not innuendo.
As to your comment that such evidence is difficult to come by, well, if you want to win a high-stakes fight, you've got to work for your victory. The people who are proposing to build the thing have put in a lot of work and spent a lot of money. To expect to defeat them merely by hinting that they might be sleazy is to live in dreamland.
I don't have a dog of my own in this fight. Squamish is my home climbing area, and will always claim a huge place in my heart. But after climbing mostly elsewhere for the last twelve years, I find Squamish noisy, crowded, and almost the antithesis of Park-like. To the point that a gondola simply can not make it worse and may well make it better.
But I wish you all well in the fight
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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What if this results in even more cars parking in the Chief lots. It's nearly impossible to park there on the weekends as it is.
You guys make sure that they have a parking plan that jives with the projected ridership with out using the park.
I camped about ten days in the campground last summer and you cannot hear the highway.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:07am PT
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O.K. Boss, we'll get right on that for you. You keep climbing. We'll keep making sure "they" do everything to your satisfaction.
I'm just jealous Bruce...wish I was heading to Black Velvet tomorrow. Rip it up.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:23am PT
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Cooooooooool, what's that? Levitation 29? Wild Turkey?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:44am PT
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Wow, zero outta three; do I get a prize for being close?
Where's the darkside?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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If they install a gondola from the parking pullout to somewhere up in Pine Creek Canyon, I might give that last route a shot...
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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Back to the burden of proof for nefarious dealings, especially when it involves our elected representatives. Here's a hypothetical situation: You want to establish a high-end automobile dealership on park land and you approach me for re-zoning approval - the sleazoid politician. I tell you that it's going to cost you a Lexus. You point out that it's going to look pretty strange if I don't pay for it, so I, not being completely stupid, agree to do so, but point out that I expect to get the money back - in cash.
Since even I can see several holes in this scenario, at least some of them are deliberate, since I have no interest in teaching a course in corruption (I'll let the politicians do that), nor am I qualified to provide this kind of instruction, but I hope you get the idea.
Meanwhile, the people who are opposed to, forgive me, paving paradise to put up a parking lot are at my throat for approving the proposal while I make inspiring speeches about jobs and progress.
Those who smell a rat are looking at massive legal bills and the major expenditure of (thankless, unpaid, and certainly not tax-deductible) time and effort to rally opposition against this outrage, and their only hope to prove malfeasance is to get their hands on the dealer's books to see how he managed to cover up the disappearance of a Lexus from his inventory - provided they were observant enough to notice that the politician is now driving a new car from that dealership, which he has apparently paid for. To do so would require the assistance of the cops and forensic accountants who, understandably, might expect some evidence before spending their time and effort to investigate a pillar of the community. The opponents are now in a Catch 22 situation: They can't prove wrongdoing without evidence and they can't get the evidence without proof of wrondoing.
I hope the above hypothetical scenario makes sense, since it may explain why the opponents of this proposal are unable to provide solid evidence that this project MAY not be all that it appears to be on the surface. Government and big business are highly skilled at covering their asses, and they have access to powerful legal resources that are not available to mere mortals.
Meanwhile, what are your objections to fixing up the road to Habrich so that all of those widows and orphans can get a free look at the scenery while you guys (and gals) can hike, bike, climb and ski to your heart's content? Why not Britannia Beach, or somewhere closer to Van? Then, again, there's still Fat City up the road for those desperate for a gondola ride.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
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Hi Woz. As Bruce wrote in a couple weeks ago, the Ministry of Stumps isn't in the business of fixing up old logging roads. Period. You want to talk precedents, how many British Columians would like to have their local logging roads fixed up and maintained?
Finacially speaking, fixing these roads up is no small deal. Some bright light wrote in a few weeks ago how it would only be a half day to fix up the Habrich road. Not so much. Besides, you're immediately into environmental concerns, liability issues, drainage, maintenance, the list goes on and on and on. M.O.F. just de-activates and will check back later on the viability of use for logging.
If you believe the Province is broke now, set aside some moola to fix up and maintain everyone's favorite logging road.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
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Thanks Bearbreeder. That's a good read. I see the proponents acknowledge Anders but wonder where he's been for the last year and why they've never been contacted by him. Hmmmmm.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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I recognised cloud tower from the recent trip report here. Killer sends Bruce when were those shots taken?
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MH2
climber
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Apr 17, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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in Cape Town we have a Gondola. It's bloody marvelous!
Agreed. My favorite kind of transport. So quiet. Though we walked down.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 18, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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There's a pretty good rant in the Georgia Straight website regarding all this gondola stuff. In short, it says that no one is trying to take away anyone's climbs or hiking trails; they'll all still be there. But a special group is trying to make sure others don't get a chance to play in the back of the sandbox. Then it ends with a question asking if these peoples' mothers had taught them how to share properly.
Kinda goes with Rolf's entries from Mar. 27/28
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 18, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Didn't find the rant you mentioned, but there is a fairly long article on the Straight website here: http://www.straight.com/article-634541/vancouver/gondola-split-chief-park?page=0%2C0
It provides more information than I've seen elsewhere, and doesn't take sides. It does quote a variety of people with a variety of viewpoints, and ends with a brief interview with ST's own Mighty Hiker (who appears to have moderated his views somewhat):
Anders Ourom sat on both the study team that recommended the creation of Stawamus Chief Provincial Park and the citizens’ advisory committee that helped draw up the park’s management plan in the 1990s. The former president of the Climbers’ Access Society of B.C. helped lead the opposition to the 2004 gondola proposal.
Ourom told the Straight that it’s “quite possible” the new gondola plan could compromise park values. Although he’s not “completely opposed” to the proposal, he said he doubts he’ll use the gondola if it’s built.
“It’s the sort of thing where it might make sense, but it deserves a really, really hard look,” Ourom said by phone from his Vancouver home office. “I think it’s up to the proponent to show that, yes, balancing all the factors, it’s a benefit to the park and the public.”
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 18, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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WOW, moderation of the nation. M.H. quoted as not being totally opposed the gondola? Now I think we just may be making a little progress here after all. Hats off to you, M.H., people like people who share.
Don't worry, I liked you even when you didn't want to share.
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