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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
EDIT:
COZ
You're late with the challenge...
My goal in responding to this thread is to directly refute loose assumptions and rumors and challenge any naysayer to prove their opinion with facts
Challenge posed to you.... And as a reader of this thread, I think it's reasonable.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Hey Peter,
Nice letter. And I probably speak for most of the readers that we couldn't care less about the personal dick-swinging contests also going on in this thread.
You alluded to reams of testing data. That's really the kind of thing I do care about. Your original response to the situation posted last week was a good start but left way too much open to speculation. Since you claim to already have done the testing, post more comprehensive results, warts and all. Make an engineer available to address direct questions. You've had employees in the past function in that role with great success.
Thank you
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Where's Chris Harmston when we need him?
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m.
Trad climber
UT
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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Hey Coz: You and I have known each other forever- you know I've always respected you as a person and as a climber. I'm violating a personal rule to never post here [yeah, piton ron, I know I'm a wimp! :) ] in order to stand up for Black Diamond and my friends there. BD has sold over a million Bod
Harnesses since they were introduced. There has never been a single accident or fatality attributed to this harness' failure. I have absolutely no skin in this game- I'm no longer a part of BD and I don't own a single share of the new company. However, some of my dearest friends do still work there and I have tremendous affection and respect for them and for the company I helped found. I guess I'm speaking on all of our behalf as climbers and people of integrity who went to work, and still go to work, every day motivated by the desire to to design and manufacture the best gear in the world.
rock on,
maria cranor
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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I think the bomb just went pfffffft....
Hi Maria!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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Coz will be back. He has been like a bad sci if movie on this thread.....
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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I agree. He will return and still not present anything other than inflammatory statements. It's really sad how emotions cloud peoples judgement and common sense :-(
It happens to me too on occasion.....
Erik
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Peter,
Thanks for posting. It shouldn't have been necessary for you to do so in a forum like this, but I admire you for it. Sometimes silence can cause people to come to wrong conclusions.
I don't think people doubted your personal integrity and dedication to producing the best gear possible, I certainly don't. It is reassuring though to hear your take on the matter directly. Nobody knows more about this stuff than you. As far as I am concerned, which admittedly is not very far, I'm comfortable accepting your judgement. It's certainly better than mine.
I'm hoping to go to Cham this summer and if I actually get to do some real climbing for a change I would pick up a pair of Sabertooths were it not for the fact I absolutely love the Stingers I now use and wouldn't part with them.
Maria, it was so nice to hear (read) your voice. I always remember how kind you were to me the couple of times I visited the old Chouinard factory. It was an uplifting flashback to the good old days. I'm at the point in life when those flashbacks are usually occasioned by the news of yet another old friend croaking.
Bob Culp
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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How about we keep a public running total?
Good idea Dane. However there is a great government agency that does this as well. I would not only encourage, but go so far as to implore anyone who has had an issue with these crampons to contact the CPSC. You will be doing the climbing community a favor.
A firmly believe that there is no way this thread or any of the other internet threads or Danes blog will get BD to address this issue. (Dane attempting to do this through his blog and contacting BD for over a year now with no progress.) But the CPSc, should it get enough complaints could. If need be the could even do so through legal action.
If you are one of the unfortunate folks to have experienced a failure, and you want answers - file a report with the CPSC!
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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I've stayed out of this discussion as I've worked with BD for 15 years on their ice gear, and climbed hard and a lot on several protos of the stainless Saber's as well as production models. My name is Will Gadd just to be clear, Gilwad is a fairly transparent nickname some of my friends use. I'll try to keep my comments to the Sabertooths, even though I know and respect many of the names on this thread. Some of this is a fight among divorced friends unfortunately.
My current stainless Sabertooths are just about totally worn out, and have been beat to death on hundreds of pitches of water ice, alpine terrain and just mountain wandering. So my Stainless Sabertooths wore out before they broke, as my pre-stainless ones did too. I have full faith in them. The warranty numbers are reportedly very good also. But no gear is invincible.
I have at least two friends who have broken mono point crampons from another manufacturer recently. Kolin's essay (http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/blog/index/view/slug/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons); is, as usual, really honest--recent flexible boots may be an issue now for all manufacturers. Maybe design needs to change to better reflect the newer boots. I know it has at BD, as has been pointed out here, and I know I trust my crampons literally with my life. But, just as I replace a fuzzed-out rope, I'm replacing the current pair. They have seen literally hundreds of pitches of use; nothing lasts forever. Every pair of crampons that comes back to BD is examined by Kolin; if there is an issue it's going to show up in his numbers, and I have full faith in Kolin's integrity. The man does not bullshit about gear. If there's a serious problem it will be addressed, as it has in the past at BD.
One advantage to stainless is that cracks show up really, really well, unlike with a painted crampon. If we scraped the paint off our old crampons we might all be horrified, I'll leave it at that. I'll keep inspecting my gear carefully and often, and everyone who climbs should too. If you have a pair of stainless Saber's and see anything at all even potentially questionable then please send them back. Several people have found cracks etc., that's a solid warning sign obviously. If your tires are looking worn then replace them; but unlike a tire shop, BD will generally give you a new pair, usually with a smile and a sincere thanks. Nobody wants to know about problems more than BD.
Finally, I'll welcome any PMs about crampons or ice gear. No company is perfect obviously, I'll do my best help fix any problems with BD ice gear. More than a few people have been by my house for replacement gear; I take BD ice gear failures personally as I likely tested the gear, and I'm going to be using it a LOT.
PS--this video is relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xziOZfXNaEkI was routinely doing 3,000+-foot days training for this climb, almost all of it on proto Stainless Saber's.
pPS--And Ron, I'm definitely coming south in May, future discussions to be held on the range. I'll bring my old 'poons and we'll see what they can take... On second thought, that's a stunningly bad idea but I'll still bring them. Looking forward to it.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Thanks for the post Peter. I, like many others I suspect, am digesting it a bit. As a customer I would find a it very reassuring if you could answer the questions I posted earlier. (I am guessing you have either not yet seen them, or read them close to about the same time as your post.) Will, free to chime in as well if you are able! :)
How many broken Sabertooth SS crampons are you aware of?
Is this less, or more than the Sabertooth Cromo crampons corrected for ay sales difference.
How about compared to other BD crampons?
Do you know what is causing the breakage, and if so, what is it?
What have you done to address the issue?
Should climbers be concerned about these crampons?
Why has this issue not been addressed to the climbing public previously?
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Apr 17, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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thanks for the post Peter, and Will.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Apr 17, 2012 - 01:21am PT
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In my earlier posts in this thread I expressed my negative opinion of BDs response to this issue. I wanted BD to provide more specific warranty information. I assumed that their reluctance to provide that information was because it would reflect poorly on the quality / durability of the product. Today, on the QC Lab section of their web site, BD posted the information that I (and I think many other people) requested. From my layman's perspective, it shows that there is not a serious quality / durability issue with crampons in question.
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/all/all/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons#comment-7925
I still feel that BD could have handled this issue better with more transparency at an earlier date. I also still have some concerns about BDs change in ownership and non-US manufacturing. However, the combination of Peter's response and the willingness of the "BD Crew" at the lab to engage in a dialogue have greatly impressed me.
I feel that I need to give credit to BD for their recent responses. I also want to state that based on the information provided by BD, I am no longer concerned about the quality of the stainless steel Sabretooth crampons.
Thanks for doing the right thing BD. For whatever it is worth, your responses over the last few days make me happy to continue to buy and use BD gear.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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I'd like to see what happens when the stress tests are done in a cold chamber in freezing temperatures.
Everything always changes radically in the extremes.
Yer all bad asses kick ass extreme climbers so you would know that too .....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:04am PT
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Well, this thread took a turn for the positive! Your response was way overdue Peter. I appreciate that you don't want to get involved in the personal bantering that will quickly and usually turn personal. meantime, if Dane and folks would keep a count of breakages, they can help maintain the quality you so desire....
...life goes on.
Thanks Dane, Bob Culp and everyone who contributed and is contributing.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:19am PT
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From the comments section on the QC LAB article:
We have seen no frame breaks on any Cyborgs, cromoly or stainless steel. Sabretooth frame/point breaks are slightly higher (0.05% to 0.03%) for stainless than cromoly (note: they are not of the same design). For frame/point breaks on the stainless steel Contacts, the rate (0.01%) is far lower than cromoly (0.05%) (also note they are not of the same design).
EDIT:
RDB, those numbers were in my post, directly above your reply, if you'd bothered to look... There, it's even in bold for ya now.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 17, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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if folks would keep a count of breakages, they can help maintain the quality you so desire....
Thanks Bill, but not my job. Better that BD simply tells us how many returned Saber's they have had, out of how many produced. Let BD keep a public running total so we can make up our own minds on what kind of numbers are acceptable. That is one way BD might easily repair the "damage to the brand".
This has been such a silly topic to go on this long anyway. It only hurt BD. Not like any of this info is a state secret as they have acknowledged the 0.05% failure rate already. BD wants back what was at one time real credibility? They could start there. You can bet those failure and production figures are at the tips of more than one hand today @ BD.
"Stainless rocks!" The Saber is only one model of crampon from BD. As I said those numbers aren't state secrets. In this case I think they should be public, not because I am trying to be a prick but becasue I think it would help BD's flagging credibility.
As we all know gear breaks. The Saber isssue is now well past "long in tooth" and I have no doubt the issue has caused some heartache at BD and with their customer base. One way to relieve some of that heartache for the customers is simply come clean with the real numbers.
I still have two pair of stainless Sabers (Gen IIs bought at REI) hanging on my gear wall. And as I have said in print many times I really love climbing on them. Please excuse me if Peter's, Will's or Doug's endorsement have yet to convince me to start climbing on them again without a 2nd thought. The words of support here for the ss crampons don't match the last 14 months of reality.
I am not a BD hater, just a realist.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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RDB
Just a thought, maybe you just need to go buy a different crampon.
BD makes the Saertooth. They like how its made so that is the product.
You like the product but no-longer trust it. You are not satisfied with the BD reassurance offered.
Perhaps its time for you buy a new crampon that you trust.
Remeber, BD is a company run by people to sell product to you.
Those people decide procedure / product.
Your input as a customer is to buy or not buy and/or complain.
You have done both.
BD replied and made it clear that is THE REPLY.
Now we will see if BD fails or continues (freemarket system).
I expect they will continue.
EDIT:
There was once a time when, if people disagreed with the quaity of the product and disagreed with the people behind the product. Said person would prove them wrong by making a better product (thereby proving themselves correct) and take the market....
Have we as a society lost that vigor.... Are we becoming finger waggers toward the group of people the are "doers"???
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murf02
climber
NYC
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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I own them and do not hesitate to use them. They're not the first ones I grab normally but they do have many climbs and pitches behind them.
BD has always been more than fair over time; I sent them 2 sets of cams years back to have the nylon changed they replaced most of the wires free of charge. When the xenos harnesses were recalled (I busted all six clipper loops) BD sent out a new harness no questions asked.
Grivels 3rd generation Rambo's on the other hand were a nightmare for me personally.
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