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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 28, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
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rgold,
I agree that in these internet discussions, we are all participating as opposed to if we had read this news in a magazine and had little chance of getting heard or hashing anything out. The internet offers a sense of community untold by magazines.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 28, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
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No John, your approach worked in the old days because the place you climbed really didn't require bolting.
Henry didn't go from place to place to repeat anything but testpieces, like Foops.Once the testpieces fell, he fired what was currently unclimbed. In doing so he hurt some feelings,but to a greater extent gave us all something greater to aspire to.Your complaints about him Dingus, are incredibly petty. You guys could have risen to the challenge, or bolted it, and chose the latter.
No Henry wasn't much good at bolting...lol.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 28, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
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Is there someone I can check with on this thread to approve my climbing plans for this weekend? Preferably old, not climbing often, who replies with spelling errors and illogical rants about the old days and gyms? FWIW, I intend to drill...
drill baby drill!
just NIMBY...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 28, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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Tomcat,
I know where my wit lies, who wins and who loses and how to make what I want happen. Perhaps you could read my last post (aspirations) in healyje's topic, "Old Folks: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bolt". I know how to feed a beggar and it looks like I have feed you.
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roadkillphil
Trad climber
Colorado
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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The Hills is such a great place it's easy to understand why people get so worked up over it. History and tradition bump against new ways and attitudes in most established areas, and the locals and semi-locals in the Hills have done a good job of trying to acheive some balance; but politics is politics (egos of all sizes included), no matter the scenario. Things get nasty dirty. And history and tradition are both notoriously malleable commodities.
There are tons of great routes to do, but there have always been plenty of climbs in the Needles I know I will never lead, although I keep practicing and every once in a while whimper my way up one.
Would a bolt on the runout Needle's Eye make it more accessible? (Yes, the subject has come up). For sure. But would the line be a long standing classic for which to strive, or would it be just another fun 5.8?
For me personally, the answer is the former.
The Super Pin history is still being created, but the bolt was there for a long time and became part of the area's lore. If it was to be removed, it should have been done a long time ago. It wouldn't be the first time a local there removed what was considered a spurious bolt placed by a visitor (as the removee, I speak from experience here).
Just what history is relevant? I would bet there were people who didn't want to install a Needle's Highway; but now that it is there, it is an accepted and heavily used part of the landscape.
Retrobolting is indeed a slippery slope. And there seems to be a bit of a double standard. (Why has a shiny bolt appeared at the topout for the 5.8 on Campground Boulder, yet the classic problems on the west side still sport the historic rusty buttonheads?) Did Mr. Gill even use those bolts?
Now that deforestation is in full swing, the landscape is changing. In a few years the Hills is going to have a whole new look...think Hayman Burn area in the SoPlatte. Lost, forgotten, and undiscovered routes and lines are emerging from the thinning trees almost daily. There is lots to do. The never ending Needles bolting discussion will continue ad nauseum.
Although the whole thing is interesting and important to many, I just like to climb in the Paha Sapa.
We did a "new" spire the other day 20' feet off a popular trail. It is such an obvious line I'm sure it was done years ago by the Conns or someone else on the long list of known associates; but until the trees went away it was completely hidden. And we did it with no bolts!
I did place a bomber #4 Camalot near the top, but decided maybe I wasn't being sporting enough, so I didn't clip it. And we placed a register (the early primitive nondigital SuperTopo Forum) just in case. Feel bad that I left a rap sling when we should have Needles rapelled, but it's not visible from the ground.
Sorry about this rambling senseless post, but I've senselessly got this far and am too old to change now.
Go climbing and have fun.
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xbrit
Social climber
Palisade,CO
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I have heard his friends now call him Pot Henry,....nothing to do with weed.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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All these bolters make me long for regulation! The sooner the better!!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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There is regulation and it is largely ignored. I am assuming that almost all of the big shiney bolts have been put in with a motorized drill in Custer State Park in the last 15 years. That is illegal. No law against bolting on rappel though that is an ethical thing. In all reality the needles is far from overrun with rap bolting. I have been climbing there quite often for the last 20 years and there are only a handful of routes that I have seen that have been retrobolted or rap bolted. It is a very easy place to keep secrets as there are so many spires, coradors, and walls that even if you told someone about a route they may not find it even with a guidebook. Now that does not make it right I think just like the Super Chicken thread this is the way to go about showing your displesure with ethical delimas and hopefully the community can take action not just one individual. I think the rushing out to do something by an individual will lead to more scarring of the rock not less.
Also mentioned in the Super Chicken thread is having a registry of some of these great achievments that will lead to their preservation. I think that this is partially what has happened in the Needles. There is no comprehensive guide with the relavent history for the needles that has been published in the last couple fo decades. If you have no book and no history how does one know that 5.7 on Spire XYZ was soloed by the Grand Master and therefore no bolts can be added.
In conclusion I do believe that these threads have and are becoming the local, regional, and national climbing coalitions of the past and that they ellicit a far more represntative group than what current climbing organizations have in their ranks which seemed to be populated mostly with people of the same viewpoint.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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high five, knuckle bump, Phil!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Hey Rich, tell us about doing Freak's Fright and why it shouldn't be retrobolted. Would it be cool if I replace the bolt if I ever get the courage to lead it. It looked to be in pretty poor condition when I followed it several years ago, thin spinning hanger on a quarter incher that is hanging out and bent over. Only 40ft to the next pro on a 90ft route after a 10+ crack.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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35 feet of crack down and now you have done 10 feet of face past the crux and you are 10 feet above a good two or three camalot, but don't worry the tin can hanger with the bent over quarter inch bolt is at your waste and you only have 35 feet to go to get to the horizontal which is essentially the top. What a summit.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jul 10, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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Bump, I heard the bolt on Freak's Fright has been replaced. Anyone know if Superpin is still in its re-virginization phase.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 10, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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Mike, I have never objected to replacing an existing bad bolt with a good one, so there's nothing to be said about the bolt on FF. I can tell you that there is another route on FF, done before Kamps and I did our route, and the bolt was placed by those climbers. We clipped it because it was there. We didn't have a bolt kit with us, so I don't know how the route might have turned out if the bolt hadn't already been in place. I don't remember the climbing on that part to be very difficult, but that ascent was a looooong time ago.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Jul 11, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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Wow, talk about a complicated bolt issue--not only are there multiple aspects, I actually have some sympathy with those arguing both sides. First of all, it's not clear to me why the lower bolt replacing the fixed pin was also chopped? (it was right?) I had thought that that addition to the climb was pretty uncontroversial? So, that leaves the issue of the upper bolt. I'm basically of the same mindset of those who feel the bolt should have never been added--but I also agree that some type of "statute of limitations" should apply to a bolt's removal. After 34 years, I think a good argument can be made that some sort of tacit approval for the bolt existed--certainly by the local community and perhaps even by the FA party. Finally, will the removal of the higher bolt really keep many people off the route? I suppose it might, as the climb will certainly be scarier. On the other hand, did anyone ever fall on that bolt in 34 years? I have no idea--just wondering.
Curt
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 15, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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Controversy bump
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Glad this got this bolting issue ironed out and consensus was achieved.
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