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Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 12:05pm PT

ed and klimmer can argue the math of the image, but if anyone's interested in the case from other angles, step back and consider human behavior. this event raised considerable curiosity and it hasn't been satisfactorily explained. it was published as an unknown missile launch. the military agencies each denied it was theirs. this went all the way to the pentagon without anyone checking the flight log of known airplanes? "ain't no missile, it was an airplane, dummy. check with the FAA."

none of this happened. it got published internationally, and still no one came forward to say it was such-and-such an airplane on such-and-such a flight path, cleared with air traffic control. i think this trumps all of ed's sophisticated calculations, by which he tells us it could have been an airplane and may not have been a missile. if it really was an airplane, this would have been settled right away. klimmer, you're not going to beat ed at the math game. force him to address the rest of it.

here are the possibilities:

1. it was just a known airplane on a known flight path
2. it was a stray airplane and everyone's embarrassed because it violated a very vulnerable airspace
3. it was an american missile, lauched by mistake and everyone's embarrassed about that for obvious reasons
4. it was an american missile, launched on purpose and it's being denied for some reason we all ought to be trying to figure out here instead of working on #1 versus #3.
5. it was a missile launched by the chinese or some other entity playing rootin-tootin cowboy.

has there been an FAA news release telling us that, no, the air traffic control system did not break down that day, these goddam reporters just went off half-cocked? "just an airplane" makes the FAA look pretty bad if the press is saying it's a missile and they can't even tell us what airplane it was. it trumps your math, ed, hate to tell ya.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 12:22pm PT

no, I think you've got it wrong Tony...

the flights were known, what is unknown is how the scene could have been constructed from the flight and the meteorological conditions, that's not such an easy calculation, and one that is more readily put aside... there are too many variables to provide a definitive reconstruction of a scene that has no need to be reconstructed.

"I saw it with my own eyes"

but what did you see?

Sometimes when I'm climbing in Tuolumne Meadows the conditions are just right so that there is a checkerboard grid of contrails from the various flights, both north-south and east-west, easy to reconstruct, amazing that the contrails can stay undispersed for hours... this doesn't always happen because it depends on a number of meteorological conditions not alway present.

Strange times we live in where the first reaction of the public is that there is some huge govt conspiracy...

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 12:30pm PT

he, a trained aviator, could have been incorrect in assuming he could make that determination in those (unknown) conditions

it wouldn't be the first time

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Nov 15, 2010 - 01:07pm PT

What gets me, is when you start to see X's and O's in those "contrail checkerboards"

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 01:34pm PT

according to the links here, we have a "blogger" "solving" the mystery by conjecturing that it was the hawaii/phoenix flight, and then a "military adviser" to fox news saying, yea, sounds like that makes sense.

nothing official came out of the FAA and air traffic control to assure us that this was that flight, showing that the plane was there at that time, whether on schedule or a few minutes ahead or behind. we do have the DoD declaring it was "satisfied the event was likely caused by an airplane", but no one assured the public that the news people were mistaken. only conjecture.

i love it when the military gets vague like that. they will "likely" protect us. on 9/11 they missed four intercepts, including the one on the pentagon where they had 40 minutes of lead time. still pickin' their teeth and fixin' their hangnails, i guess. mind if i withhold a little from my next tax return?

WBraun

climber

Nov 15, 2010 - 01:40pm PT

we have a "blogger" "solving" the mystery by conjecturing that it was the Hawaii/phoenix flight

And then all the sheep here on this forum crying in unison agreeing and calling anyone who thinks otherwise a wackjob all while it's completely clear that no one has positive proof of anything.

Now that's fuked up ....

Klimmer

Mountain climber

San Diego

Nov 15, 2010 - 01:44pm PT

I have been very clear the entire time. After going down the road in the wrong direction no thanks to Monolith who posted some bad graphics I have turned around and figured it out.

Let's go over the evidence:

1) Cameraman with a helicopter pilot couple of thousand feet off the deck had a very clear view. Shot good video of the event. Said it was a missile. He said he could see it spiraling. We could all see the emitted specular light and glow for ourselves. We can see the clock-wise spinning patterns in the exhaust/vapor plume of the missile.

2) With the images and footage that the moving helicopter took it is easy to set-up stereograms with many different frames from the same footage. Did that. The paralax is more than enough to see the exhaust/vapor plume slanting steeply and upward to the W - WNW and that it is back-lit by the setting Sun. No matter who says you can not do this is absolutely wrong. I did it and I have viewed them over and over. I pretty much knew before doing the stereograms that is what I would see. Anyone who has half a brain can see the massive exhuast/vapor plume is back-lit from the setting Sun. This means the plume has to be facing away to the W - WNW.

3) The stereograms are visual proof. For Ed to say "No," is a joke. The exhaust/vapor plume is massive in size and at a very far distance. Plenty of paralax. View it and SEE!

4) Marking up an image from the original footage shot by the cameraman in the helicopter across the Long Beach Harbor, over the South end of the Palos Verdes Peninsula, and very North of Catalina Island, you can see the North end of the Island very South of the the exhaust/vapor plume, all lines up to about 240 degrees.

5) Also in the same image you can see that the very top of the exhaust/vapor plume is behind and much, much higher than the Cirrus cloud in the fore-ground that is evenly lit-up by the setting Sun. The Cirrus cloud is between 16,500 to 40,000 feet high. The tip of the exhaust plume is much higher than this since we can see it leaning away from the coast and still the tip is higher than the cirrus clouds. That high-end tip of the exhaust is very, very high. Has to be.

6) Using 240 degrees from the South tip end of Palos Verdes and going North of Catalina, lines right up with the massive exhaust/vapor plume in the the GOES satellite images. Not only that, you can see the plume going up steeply to the WNW and then the missile plume turns more toward the W and continues to ascend. Then you can see the entire massive exhaust/vapor plume spread by the winds and widden, and then drifts a short distance to the SSE not far South from 240 degrees. The massive plume grows through time toward the W - WNW and elongates as the missile ascends. It all fits and exactly where I said it should be. Bingo.

7) Then doing the simple trig, as anyone can do so firing model rockets to determine the approx. max. altitude, it isn't hard to do. I have shown the altitude of the max. exhaust/vapor plume to be well over any altitude that any jet craft can attain, > 156,000 + feet.

There is no doubt that it is a missile launch. Was it ours? Was it their's? The DoD knows.

Facts are facts. The evidence is what it is.

dirtbag

climber

Nov 15, 2010 - 01:47pm PT

Yep, it's the bogeyman. We knew it all along.

Gene

Social climber

Nov 15, 2010 - 02:03pm PT

Klimmer,

A question, please.

Cameraman with a helicopter pilot couple of thousand feet off the deck had a very clear view. Shot good video of the event. Said it was a missile. He said he could see it spiraling.

What does "spiraling" mean?

g

EDIT: Do you mean the "missle" was spiraling?

monolith

climber

Berkeley, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 02:33pm PT

So Klimmer, you seem to be saying it went up steeply very slowly, hardly any downrange movement compared to the launches we've seen, cuz we certainly don't see much in the sat pic.

Why did the missile lose most of it's plume Klim and still be visible?

Why is the plume so narrow and enlarges 'higher' up?

I've got more questions, but lets start with these.

Do I need to repost the pic? It's in my previous post.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati

Nov 15, 2010 - 02:44pm PT

mind if i withhold a little from my next tax return?

Tony, you (your household) pulled down $58K from the government last year and you're whining about your taxes?

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 03:25pm PT

not that i give that much of a damn about it, but graniteclimber really does seem to have sources of information that he likes to show off on here. he has apparently broken the law in acquiring information about my last tax return and i have asked chris mcnamara to ban him from supertopo. chris is looking into this.

is graniteclimber an illuminatus? i really don't know if it's a myth or reality. at this point, i don't much care. he could be some sort of computer hacker who succeeded in getting the information, again illegally.

i'm going to ask everyone on here to post what you know about this guy. there was some question on another thread as to whether he's really a climber at all, but he seems to talk the climb jive, at least when he has to. if he really is a climber, i think he deserves a pretty good outing for a stunt like this.

i will be asking the IRS how he was able to get this information which is supposed to be held in confidence. he'll probably try to delete this post, so i'm going to ask everyone to be a witness to it, cut and paste the text, note the date and time you remember it appearing. i will be initiating an investigation against him. we're going to have the pin the little squirrel down first.

monolith

climber

Berkeley, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 03:51pm PT

I think you will find there are a lot of public records available on the net, Tony, that is if you didn't blab it elsewhere.

dirtbag

climber

Nov 15, 2010 - 03:56pm PT

is graniteclimber an illuminatus? i really don't know if it's a myth or reality.

You mean, Special Agent Graniteclimber?

LOL!

Gene

Social climber

Nov 15, 2010 - 04:00pm PT

Regardless of the source of the income data, accurate or knott, it serves no purpose other than to demonstrate the poster's lack of the character.

g

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati

Nov 15, 2010 - 04:04pm PT

Why would I delete the post?

The information was from a LEGAL source deemed reliable and was not from any tax returns or any IRS database.

So you are saying the source is accurate, Tony?

Why do you take government funds with both hands while your mouth spews anti-government venom and threatens to withhold taxes?

monolith

climber

Berkeley, CA

Nov 15, 2010 - 04:07pm PT

Sounds like a tea partier.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati

Nov 15, 2010 - 04:13pm PT

i'm going to ask everyone on here to post what you know about this guy. there was some question on another thread as to whether he's really a climber at all, but he seems to talk the climb jive, at least when he has to. if he really is a climber, i think he deserves a pretty good outing for a stunt like this.

Look Tony, you're the one who came after ME, attacking me personally and kept trying to find out as much as you could about me, and make it all about me, my background, what I climb, and so on. I didn't know you from Adam until you started doing this.

The difference between you and me is that I can deliver and you can't.

There is more where that came from. It's legally obtained and I can post it. If you like, I can post the full record.

Edit: I'll ask again, but I really do not expect a response. If you hate the government so much why don't you just give the money back? I am sick of hypocrites taking our tax money while simultaneously making accusing the government of being an evil conspiracy.