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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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In response to my post about open carry folks walking into coffee shops with guns.
I'm not scared of guns, I'm scared of people with guns. People, not just gun people- everyone, is f*#king crazy. People who feel the need to express a right at a coffee shop, go for it, but don't play the victim when other people treat you different.You are different, you are carrying a deadly weapon and most other people are not.
If we are to treat of every gun as loaded, why shouldn't I leave when some fat old white man enters a coffee shop with a side arm. What if it's tax day.
Point- it's not the object, it's the people who control the object.
Either way, nothing much changes with this legislation, until the open carry folks press it. Then they get hassled by cops, then they get sent on their way because it's legal to open carry. Then they get on internet and spray about how they were oppressed by the government.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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dktem, you cannot discuss constitutional rights and law without the Founders. I'm sorry their words don't jive with your 21st century sensibilities.
C'mon, that's not what I said and you know it. I said that most Founder's quotes are already well known and are too general to be relevant to the specific issues under debate. When someones sprinkles generic quotes from the Founders into their arguments, it is almost always because they don't really have anything else to support their argument.
If I insert a random quote from a Founder here, does it make my argument irrefutable? Or does anyone who challenge me now become un-American?
I really pity you this summer after McDonald v. Chicago is settled in the Supreme Court [...]
You don't have to pity me. Why make it personal? This is not a "me vs. you" contest that either one of us is going lose based on some Supreme Court ruling.
If you read my prior posts, you'll see that I agree with you more than you are now assuming with regard to gun control policy. I'm actually in favor of a consistent national concealed carry policy. But I also understand the very rational reasons why people might be uncomfortable when they go to the grocery store and find themselves standing in line with folks who automatic pistols strapped to their side.
One thing you're NOT going to see, and that's blood flowing in the streets.
Absolutely no one on this thread has even hinted that there is going to be "blood on the streets." That bit of hyperbole is your choice of words. The worst possible outcome will be a rise in the number of gun related deaths. And, like all statistics, there will plenty of debate about the accuracy of these numbers. But if we know a policy is contributing to more tragedies, why can't we have a reasonable debate about changing it?
Becoming a NP is probably the worst thing that ever happened to Josh.
You do have me thinking on this one. I certainly could have chosen a better example.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
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One thing you're NOT going to see, and that's blood flowing in the streets. It's just not going to happen. Remind me again what the death rate from guns is in the US, and the proportion of those that are from assault/murder or suicide? As compared to other liberal democracies?
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Matt M
Trad climber
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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Remind me again what the death rate from guns is in the US, and the proportion of those that are from assault/murder or suicide? As compared to other liberal democracies?
I hate to disagree with Mighty Hiker since we see eye to eye on many things but there's a great big "unmentioned" here regarding "firearm deaths"
I haven't been able to find any concrete studies, only some that touch on it, but gun deaths are not a universal problem across the board. No one wants to "say it" but demographics play a LARGE role in gun related deaths and suicides in the USA. Demographics that I don't think Canada has.
The study I recall (possibly poorly) cited high rates of homicide/suicide by gun in A)Rural, Poor white populations B) Urban, poor Black and Hispanic populations
I could be talking out of my A** but I just don't think Canada has the same cultural, socioeconomic and geographic situations that the USA does or does in much smaller concentrations. Add to that the massive population difference and I think there's SOMETHING there besides gun laws.
People point to Switzerland all the time as an arguing point. I try to avoid it though because it's VERY different than the US. There isn't a St Louis, Detroit or Miami in Switzerland that I know of or even Canada for that matter. You could look even further to cultural differences in countries. The Swiss are arguably more reserved (and more homogenous as well). Same goes for the Canucks. I don't see Canada with an Urban, Violent Rap Culture as you'd see in LA, Atlanta etc. I hate the fact the USA DOES have these blights by the way.
So in this case, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. While it pisses off purist 2nd Amend people, I do think the US could do more to keep guns outta the hands of the Bad people. There are tons and tons of responsible gun owners that never have issues (the vast majority).
Now, the problem is the issue is so polarizing (look here!) that no one wants to give an inch to find a good answer for the somewhat unique US situation.
EDIT TO ADD: I'm with Dingus - Support the Second but not the idea that anyone should be able to carry anything anywhere. That's just dumb
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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There is definatly a lot of folks out there that shouldn't have guns and there are also a lot of guns folks shouldn't have... That being said I have owned guns my whole life.
The argument that the gun is just a tool is so much BS...
A chainsaw is a tool designed to cut down trees.
An ice ax is a tool designed to climb ice.
A cordless rotary hammer is a tool designed to rig sport climbs.
The much mentioned (in this argument) Fire extinguisher is a tool for putting out fires.
A Pistol is designed specificly for killing people.
A tacticle/assult/sniper rifle is built from the ground up with no other purpose than killing people...
So please spare me the BS about it just being a tool.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Yes, we are blessed as a nation, and I am sure it was the good lord's intention, that we have so many fire arms in this country.
We are greatly protected from the black helicopters that approach even as we post.
As well, we are greatly protected from crime by virtue of a plethora of weaponry that takes out the perps with such great efficiency in this blessed country.
A proof of the efficiency of firearm ownership in this country is the incredibly high murder rates and general crime rates in countries like Japan and those in Europe where gun control is rampant.
We need more guns!
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Matt M
Trad climber
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Quick note - There aren't 4 Million M1 Garands in Civilian hands. That's the approximate TOTAL production number. Many thousands if not more were distributed to various countries post WW2 and Korean War. (I think using a "Lend Loan" system?). Then the Military had theirs and either kept them or they were used up / destroyed. You can purchase a surplus M1 Garand however. The Department of Civilian Marksmanship and now the Civilian Marksmanship Program allows qualified people to purchase one. They're awesome but there's nowhere close to 4 mil in private hands.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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Trademanclimbs,
"A tacticle/assult/sniper rifle is built from the ground up with no other purpose than killing people..."
I think you forgot to say.. "and prarrie dogs."
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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So it’s been a few days, do we have a body count yet?
Are they stacking the dead up like cordwood outside the Ahwahnee?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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You can certainly use the tool for other uses the same way that you could with all the other tools that I mentioned but the primary reason for the development and manufacture of those tools is killing people.
Likewise those tricked out .22 rimfire bolt guns that they use for Biathalon were obviously built from the ground up with the mission of knocking the center out of those little circles and being portable by a skier. However the sport itself was derived from a military contest to see whose soldiers would be best and killing people while sking.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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Most dangerous thing we own, causes most deaths is a car. It's an incredible weapon and it accidently kills hundreds if not thousands of people everyday. What if it falls into the wrong hands, a maniac that will love to plow into a crowd?
Guns are not much different.
All I have to say is there are places that would take a police officer more than an hour to arrive. If someone shows up with ill intent, you are on your own. Trust me, it's not a bad idea to own a gun in that situation. Especially if you are a cute girl living on your own. Plus there was one house I stayed in that kept a rifle above the door because a grizzly bear was hanging around. Yes, guns are dangerous tools "just like cars." They should always be used with caution and respect. Yet to be denied such a tool would place a few of us in a precarious spot.
Me, myself and I never owned a gun in a city. Especially in Santa Paula when an officer will arrive in seconds, not minutes. Yet I did own one when I lived in the country and it was a necessary part of that reality. I know a few of you have never lived outside of a city, can't imagine a gun being important. I advise all of you to spend a few months in wild country and I am sure you will see my point.
AFS
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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Mr. Donini. That is incorrect, sir.
Sorry to respond WAY after your statement, but in fact there are vast teeming herds of rednecks about.
Their sex lives I do not wish to contemplate(shudder), but apparently, they breed just fine.
More's the shame. Alas.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 25, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Ha! The machete in Rawanda as evidence of the need for more guns in America. Your logic is, doubtless, infallible.
Our ability to do immediate and devastating violence to others (just in case) makes us all free.
Let us all carry machetes. More guns and machetes, that's what I say.
As far as I know machetes are legal in National Parks. From now on I'll carry one on my belt.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 26, 2010 - 09:08am PT
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Ah, well...I still maintain that a gun is just a tool.
Actually, the parks have plenty of Tools.
Never brought a piece to a park....Got jacked by the Tool for my bow, though.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 26, 2010 - 09:43am PT
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Without question the dumbest MFs on the planet are those who have some romantic notion of how great it would be to have an armed revolution in this country... You can't even begin to describe how stupid that idea is and how out of touch with reality those morons who think it would be fun are.
We have a pretty darn good thing here in the good ol USA even though we seem to be letting it go down the drain. Its still damn good compared to a lot of other places on this planet. Watch the news and see what the folks who are caught up in revolutions and war have. It ain't pretty. Why in hell would you want to turn our cushy gigs into the mess that we see in all those war torn countrys..
The thought that a bunch of fat lazy rednecks are going to be able to take on predator drones and blackwater Hit squads because they are afraide that the evil democrats will raise their taxes for comunist red pinko faggot health care reform is just so pathatic..
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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Given that the majority of gun nuts here and elsewhere in the US never served a day in the military, the notion of some sort of revolution or insurgency is laughable.
Laughable.
DMT
Quit beating that dead horse. There are plenty of competition shooters that can out-shoot ANYONE in the military. Especially YOU !
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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OMG that is so pathetic.. Like a few good shooters are gonna make a difference.. Trust me they are the vast Minority. One of the things that I learned from my stint shooting IPSC is that very few rednecks can shoot their way out of a wet paper bag.. The real point is that the romantic idea of armed revolt is such a pathetic fantasy. The reality is destruction, death, financual ruin, poverty, famin, disease and pretty much wrecking the good deal that we have.
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jason brooks
Ice climber
colorado
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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Many people who don't own guns are morons, especially, those who think big government is good. The first step in tyrannical takeover is disarming the peasants. Study Hitler, Stalin & Mao, then explain why gun control is good.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Given that the majority of gun nuts here and elsewhere in the US never served a day in the military, the notion of some sort of revolution or insurgency is laughable.
Perhaps more to the point about this comment is the huge number of
gang members who have joined and been trained to shoot straight and
coordinate their fields of fire. That is really scary shite. I've
seen estimates of up to 2% of the Army and Gyrenes! WTF?
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