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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Job 3:4
If a woman does float she is a witch.
JDF
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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since peganmonkeyboy posted up that Deuteronomy poster.... good call PMB.. I hadn't read to that point in Deut!
I was checking out how similar Deuteronomy 7 was to what I understand is the one thing we all seem to hate about those who believe in Islam... "Kill the infidels, or convert them..."
Can any of the biblical folks here tell me the difference between the two?
personally, I don't like either:
In one instance, I understand that the kill or convert was used to bring down a WTC tower or two...
In another instance Deut 7 was used to virtually oblitorate an entire population of native peoples just north of the US border (still happening, just really quitely, from what I understand)...
And what about the aboriginal peoples of Australia... though here, again, I have limited understanding of its wonderful history, I do know that the oblitoration of the native peoples were basically called for by the governments understanding and interpratation of the bible...
hence, my suspicion of anyone who states that they believe.. do they believe it all? And of course, any good, moral human, would say that they don't agree with how others are interpreting and using the bible for their own profit/persuasions and influence...
But come on... Isn't that the whole idea of having a bible so that you can base your religion on it?
Some will say "there are many good things in the bible, we can't just throw it all away because of how a rotten few are using the book".. I say yes, I can throw it all away just because of how a rotten few are using the bible.. just like I can throw away any other book that is used as the basis for a rotten few's actions.
It makes much more sense to me to live ones life according to some rules that make sense (checking Ed's short list of does and dont's, could do us all some good) and then chuck the rest as redundant chatter from ages ago that no long have any real application (how many of you true believers checked your wifes virginity check box before you got married?).
Sorry if this flies in the face of your beliefs, but it makes more sense that we humans have a limited time to spend our lives on. Focusing all ones attention on one religion or another seems to me to be.. wasteful.
I understand that this may seem somewhat selfish....
What, other than selfish, is your life? You can say that you do everything you do for others.. but even there, someone can easily say you do it for your own reasons (one feeds the homeless because as a youth they experienced a period of homelessness... but when it comes down to it.. this brings this one some form of happiness.. and that can be a selfish action.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Matthew 8:18-22, Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. 19 And a scribe came up and said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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JaunDeFuca- "Job 3:4 "If a women does float she is a witch."
??
"May that day be darkness;
May God above not seek it,
Nor the light shine upon it." Job 3:4
Job was speaking of the day of his birth!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." John 3:19.
Yes Jingy, selfishness is often what it boils down to...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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John 1:29-34, The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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so let me get this straight - if i telepathically ask a zombie for forgiveness for all the bad things I want to do, and eat his flesh, I'm golden ?
and no one sees this as sorta weird, or a scam perpetuated by the power hungry over the weak minded ? the whole 'you have original sin just by being born and only we can save you' doesn't look just a little suspicious to anyone else ? anyone ?
and the true reward only comes after you are dead - yeah that can't possibly be a scam...
it's ok to be scared, people. but don't be hoodwinked...you have brains for a reason, it seems weird to me that the creator would ask you to not use them as part of the path to salvation...i mean it's the tree of knowledge for a reason, right ?
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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TripL7 - Not sure I see the relevance to my statements....
I wont give it too much thought though..
Good luck with that..
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Romans 1:18-21, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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you have brains for a reason
Um, Tom, I think we were given brains so that the zombie would have something to eat. Or maybe I misunderstood. Are you saying that we should actually use our brains to think? Isn't that wrong?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jingy- "Not sure I see the relevance to my statement"
Jingy- "What, other than selfish, is your life?"
I was simply agreeing with your premise that our motives, however altruistic they may seem, usually have selfish motives!
I should have put the bible verse, John 3:19, after my statement of agreement to you in regards to mans selfish motives.
EDIT: Actually I should have just made to separate posts, one to your statement in regards to selfishness and my agreeing to it. And the second post for John 3:16(it was late and i was tired).
John 3:19 is more about man not wanting his darkness/sin being exposed to the light.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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ya know what's funny ? i'm nice to people because i think people should be nice to each other, not for any reward after this shell is done moving...there's no motive, no payoff other than that i feel it's the right thing to do because it elicits pleasure and good energy from people, and good is better than evil (geeeee sounds a lil like god and devil, don't it...go figure...) i don't lie, cheat, or steal, i treat people like i'd want them to do to me, i try to be modest and not ostentatious or wasteful...
no jesus allah budda, no god or goddess needed...just people willing to be nice to each other and not selfish pricks...see also the healthcare debate ;-)
and no - i don't have to be promised a reunion with the dead souls i have known, or eternal bliss/torture...all i had to do was look in my heart and know the measure of humanity, and trust that i know right from wrong...i could go into the math, about how it's wrong to kill someone even though you want to because the pain they feel is greater than the pleasure you would garner in my universe, but i would think you would get the picture...
it saddens me greatly that we need to cling to such things as religion so desperately that we will kill and die for the lies sitting on top of the truths religion was supposed to help us find...spirituality is about our place in the universe, while religion just seems to be a 'my tribe is better than your tribe' type of thing...i never knew jesus was such a snob...
if you know what life is worth, you would look for yours on earth...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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pagan...!
I applaud you in your humanistic efforts and seflesness.
Regardless, I do believe I inserted "often" or "usually" before my premise!!
I believe we have all been given a conscience by our Maker.
As for your other discrepancies with my beliefs, few of them define me!
I don't do them for a reward etc. I often times do them out of love for Someone who rescued me some 50+ years ago from certain death. It has taken all of that 50+ years to get to personally know Him, and His love for the lost. Although I knew in an instant(50+ years ago)that He was/is God.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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TripL7 - oh, sorry,.. not reading it like that.. My bad...
Yes.. we are in agreement on this.
(separate story)
Another thing entirely..
I was thinking today (it almost never happens) of an email I had received from a friend/co-worker....
SO, the email was a foreign Candid Camera video.
The gist:
A nun (dressed as a nun - penguin suit, god love beads, and bible in hand and all) stops strangers and asks a question (direction?) of the strangers. To which she gets a response and moves on.
Simple enough, but after she says thank you/donka/garcias.. as she shuffles off, something falls from within her bible.
It is literature with a very clear message. Males, in the nude, stretched out and sprawling across a bed, sofa or else in another provocative pose.
Having dropped the goods and scuffled off, the unsuspecting passersby look down to see the clear pornographic nature of the literature and are at a loss as to what to do.. and sometimes have looks that do illicit some laughter in the viewer (us), if only because we (the viewers) know its a fix.
Here is my question:
Why wouldn't the people simply grab the goods, run to the nun and hand the stuff back?
Possible answer: Because its a nun. And we have more respect for them than anyone else in uniform, and the possibility of being publicly humiliated (for either party) seems a bit drastic given the nature of the situation.
That in a nutshell puts them in a better place than the rest of us. (or, at least this was my thinking for the longest time)
My real question is this:
It used to be that I would instantly have respect for a priest, or a nun, or a bishop, or a whatever name you call whatever person of whatever religion you might be thinking of.... If someone said they were a rabbi, I would take that to be an indication of how I should behave around them. But, this didn't just go for those wearing the cloth.. When people introduced themselves as Jehovah witness, Mormon, catholic in training, what-have-you, I would behave in a way that I wouldn't when I was around my friends. With friends I was loose with the language, around these people, I clam up, don't cuss, and generally adhere to a respectable manner. As I was thinking everyone else did, and does today.
I no longer feel that this is right thinking.
I think that folks should get get my respect after/when they've shown me that they are respectable.
This implies that I have the ability to discern respectability within someone else, outside myself, when I can never really, truly know what another person has in mind. Unless it is on display for all the world to see there is no way to know, is there?
I don't have to know the Dalai Lama personally to know that I might have respect for him if I were to speak to him in person. As there is an overwhelming mountain of evidence that indicate to me that this is a person whom I can respect.
One priest lives a life in perfect service to his lord, yet chases children around the rectory.
One nun lives a life of perfect service to her lord, yet verbally, physically, or mentally abuses and traumatizes children at the boarding school.
In either of these situations, we, as the outsider (meaning, we are not the priests or nuns described above) have to take everything at face value, until we are confronted with facts to the contrary.
I guess I should have fallen asleep during that philosophy class, or never picked up that philosophy book, or should have listened to that MIT professor give the lectures on philosophy.... or maybe just kept my head down and never asked questions.....
Now I have a headache.......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jingy!
Not sure if this helps, but like the Pharisees who liked to be seen and respected in public, got their reward here on earth.
But the poor old widow who gave her last penny got her reward in heaven.
Those priests etc. that you speak of are not getting away with anything.
I try and treat everyone the same.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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i'm gonna start posting my trip reports to religious forums...if that don't put the fear of god in them, nothing will...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Proverbs 9:7-12, Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse,
and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury.
8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you;
reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser;
teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.
10***The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight***.
11 For by me your days will be multiplied,
and years will be added to your life.
12 If you are wise, you are wise for yourself;
if you scoff, you alone will bear it.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"
that alone tells me all I need to know about the validity of this religion.
I don't have to fear my maker...nor eat him/her/it, actually...
so you are all a bunch of terrified cannibals ? and this somehow saves you from the same fate as the rest of us ? what am I missing here...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
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