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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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healyje -- "How can you discount their view as wrong or insufficient?"
You have a lot to learn.
The first step is who you really are. You think you are the body.
Instead you're like the kid in kindergarten who's heard some say some words "quantum physics" and haven't even learned abc or basic arithmetic and wants to jump straight to quantum physics.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Yep .....
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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Jstan wrote: "the bed rock of christianity would be concern for others
and not the focussing of one's attention solely upon what makes the believer feel good.
If the present organized religions operated to produce this way of looking at life, I would have no criticism to offer on anyone's "beliefs." "
The bed rock of Christianity IS to be concern for others. This is one way you can know (if you have wandered into a church) if what is being taught is Biblically based. I am not sure what you mean by "what makes the believer feel good"; it has not been my experience in church that the teaching is intended to make us feel good; rather it is intended to make us uncomfortable with our own complacency. Jesus taught that the road is difficult. If any preacher is saying otherwise, that it is about "feeling good", then I would suggest that they are not teaching from the Word. This is why discernment is needed, and why we ARE required by the Bible to think for ourselves.
False doctrine in the Christian church has been around a long, long time. My home church pastor encourages us to "Be Bereans," a reference to the Christians in Berea, who, the Bible said, Tested the words of those preaching to see if they were true. The test is the Bible. Even a rudimentary knowledge of the Bible should be enough for most people to chuck those "wealth and prosperity" dudes out on their butts!
If you want to know the essence of Christianity, not man-made doctrine, just read the Bible. It is really that simple. With enough Biblical knowledge you will be able to spot false teachers a mile away. And maybe it will clear up some of the confusion that people here have as to what Christianity really is. GO BACK TO THE SOURCE. Read the gospels. Ruminate on the words of Jesus. I would say to avoid organized religion. The Gospel is not intended to make Christians feel superior. If anything, it is intended to cause us great humility and gratitude.
I do agree with McArthur that satan has infiltrated the organized church. As for people being "raised" in a certain atmosphere, that may have been somewhat true years ago, but the world has shrunk so much that I don't think that applies anymore. A number of us here were not raised as Christians but became so later on. Some of us belonged to other religions. Muslims are converting to Christianity in record numbers, even when to do so is a death sentence in many countries; why would that be?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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Haven't heard from Gobee, but Bronwyn, do you also agree your god is no different than Vishnu, Ra, and Allah?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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A better question seems to be -
What do those experiences have in common?
Thank you, Warbler.
Yes, why do some other people who meditate not experience the same thing that Karl does? If there is something universal inside us, why doesn't it manifest itself better? Even when you calm your brain and let the mental noise quiet down?
It seems that different people experiencing different things is more likely because of different biology. Biology of the subtle sort mentioned by Francis Bacon(?).
Jan,
I think I've learned more from people who are supposedly mentally deficient than from your average Joe. At the other extreme, people who are way smart also sometimes seem to be in touch with a different world. I don't know why, although biology would the likely culprit. If people with no other contact with each other described the same weird experiences, it might be necessary to look further.
And that leads into the question,
Why didn't Christianity or Buddhism or any other religion arise independently in different parts of the world?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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Jan, sounds like you're subscribing to the 'Starship Troopers' school of military intelligence.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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From the Bhāgavatam we understand that Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Krsna who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas.
Although there are certain restrictive rules and regulations regarding animal sacrifice for particular purposes in the Vedas, people of demonic tendency still took to animal sacrifice without reference to the Vedic principles.
Lord Buddha appeared to stop this nonsense and to establish the Vedic principles of nonviolence. Therefore each and every avatāra, or incarnation of the Lord, has a particular mission, and they are all described in the revealed scriptures.
No one should be accepted as an avatāra unless he is referred to by scriptures.
It is not a fact that the Lord appears only on Indian soil. He can advent Himself anywhere and everywhere, and whenever He desires to appear.
In each and every incarnation, He speaks as much about religion as can be understood by the particular people under their particular circumstances.
But the mission is the same-to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion. Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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No one should be accepted as an avatāra unless he is referred to by scriptures...
So 'scriptures', the written word of men, is still the root authority.
...But the mission is the same-to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion.
And is it about consciousness or religion? Because despite the avatars, and from this thread alone, we can state that humans very much disagree on what the 'principles of religion' are.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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We humans are stupid, what do we really know ....
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Base:
Great news on your mom.
"As for bad attaching itself to good, this is the good old non sequitur:"
Healthy Forests
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Healyje, to answer your question, after my agnostic days were over, I DID worhip another god other than the God of the Bible. And I can say that the God of the Bible is NOT the same as Vishnu, Allah, etc.
If someone has been raised in another religion and has never heard of Jesus, then Jesus at the time of their death only holds them accountable for what they DID know. (If they were faithful to their native faith, that is the standard to which they are held.) We are ALL held accountable for what we know. But ultimately, Jesus IS the LORD of all. That has been my experience, coming from the "other side."
"Religion" is the construct of man. "Faith" is from the Lord. And "belief" does not have to preceed faith. Trip mentioned this also, and I know people whose first prayer was,"God, I don't even know if You even exist. I may be talking to the air. But if You are real, I ask to receive Jesus into my heart." And, basically, God took care of the rest.
Following a bunch of religious rules is not really part of the picture. The Apostles didn't follow any religious "rules" and I daresay they did just fine.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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"Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth...."
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as
"I do not understand," reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. "A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Werner wrote:
"You have a lot to learn.
The first step is who you really are. You think you are the body."
What does the body have to say about this?
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers." Jesse "The Body" Ventura
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Once again, you are confusing organized religion with genuine faith.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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We humans are stupid, what do we really know...
That's not the point Werner - the point is the notion of relative supremacy and who dictates it. Throughout history there have been countless millions of people just as sure and educated and experienced as you who completely disagree with your notions of what is superior. Sounds like Bronwyn (and probably Goobee) rejects your belief all gods are avatars of one god - who is right?
Look, all humans are capable of belief - the issue is what to do when there is a delta between verifiable, shared, perceptual experience and personal belief. Scientologists are absolute in the authority of their scriptures, as were the Egyptians and Mayans. People believe in the Tooth Fairy, others in ghosts? What makes any belief or scripture more authoritative or supreme relative to all the others?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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And we call these people that believe in such things.... atheists.
So the catholics are atheists? The paranormal pastor and any number of christians and folks who study the bible sure appear to disagree with you.
What makes your beliefs and interpretations superior to theirs? How should it be decided whose beliefs and faith is the 'genuine' one when two or more people disagree? How to judge between Werner and Bronwyn, or between those christians who believe in the trinity and those who don't?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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Base, I wanted to add my gratitude that your mom is improving. My family and I know others here on ST have been praying for the both of you.
Your views on compassion, social justice and love are right on; those are the heart of Christianity as preached by Jesus. In loving others and helping the homeless you are living the Gospel, even if you say you don't really get it. I think you do.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 15, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
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Warbler, at the risk of repeating myself, don't assume that all Christians voted for Bush!!! He was NEVER my president! As for whether or not he is actually a Christian, that is between him and God.
I heard this info about Muslims converting from several sources, so I would need to go back and look those up to properly cite them. I have also spoken personally to several people who have recently lived in predominantly Muslim countries who have witnessed this first hand. There was a conference about a year ago in SoCal where several formerly Muslim gentleman spoke, and they also confirmed that this is happening, although the Muslim countries don't want this info to become common knowledge.
But I'll see if I can find the other citations for you. May not get to it tonight, though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Yes, why do some other people who meditate not experience the same thing that Karl does? If there is something universal inside us, why doesn't it manifest itself better? Even when you calm your brain and let the mental noise quiet down?
Actually there are great commonalities in people's meditative experiences. There are also differences based on "where you're at" and "what you have within you."
When you calm your mind, stuff you have repressed and denied start rising to the surface to be resolved. If you were hurt and abused, you might have to face that stuff.
We have different preferences and predilections. Everybody has a different dance with life.
God relates to us where we're at and leaves us alone if we choose. (except that God is never truly gone) If your baby kid is having a fit and yells "Ra Ra Ra" or "Bobo Bobo Bobo" You still come and help him if you know he intends you. After all, Jesus never used the word "God" even once
peace
Karl
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 15, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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Yes, And we call these people that believe in such things.... atheists.
Skip, I didn't realize until this moment that your name is really a recommendation as to what to do with your comments.
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