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Norton

Social climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
pure unadulterated capitalism

would that not mean free of any "regulations"? has to be "pure"

free of prosecution for price fixing, monopolies I assume

by that definition I suppose America in the 1800's and early 1900's?

and that would be good thing, lifting the most people out of poverty?

versus - the Great Depression resulted from largely unregulated financial markets
combined with zero government safety nets in place for the poor

sorry, I can't buy that pure unadulterated capitalism was good for - really anytihing
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 26, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
I can't buy that pure unadulterated capitalism was good for - really anytihing

I totally agree.

We've never seen it, so I don't know what it would be good for.

But the depression's causes are much more subtle than to blame "capitalism." You might blame the fed (which was testing its new powers), for example, as a significant contribution to how bad things got. Since the creation of the fed, we really have not enjoyed any resembling "pure capitalism" in this country. Our economy has been entirely manipulated for over 70 years, and this strictly to benefit the upper crust of the so-called "1%."

Jefferson wrote: And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

The only entities that benefit from vast national debt are the ones manipulating our economy for almost a century.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 26, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html

The triumphalist narrative hailing the death of poverty rests on an illusion of deceitful accounting.

What is considered the threshold for poverty - the "poverty line" - is normally calculated by each nation for itself, and is supposed to reflect what an average human adult needs to subsist. In 1990, Martin Ravallion, an Australian economist at the World Bank, noticed that the poverty lines of a group of the world's poorest countries clustered around $1 per day. On Ravallion's recommendation, the World Bank adopted this as the first-ever International Poverty Line (IPL). But the IPL proved to be somewhat troublesome. Using this threshold, the World Bank announced in its 2000 annual report that "the absolute number of those living on $1 per day or less continues to increase. The worldwide total rose from 1.2 billion in 1987 to 1.5 billion today and, if recent trends persist, will reach 1.9 billion by 2015." This was alarming news, especially because it suggested that the free-market reforms imposed by the World Bank and the IMF on Global South countries during the 1980s and 1990s in the name of "development" were actually making things worse.

If you set the IPL at $2.50/day (less than what most Americans pay for a Latte at Starbucks) more than 350M+ are impoverished today than in 1981.
kattz

climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
the absolute number of those living on $1 per day or less continues to increase. The worldwide total rose from 1.2 billion in 1987 to 1.5 billion today and, if recent trends persist, will reach 1.9 billion by 2015

Of course! If these nations breed with the speed of light, like they do, people having 10 kids without thinking of consequences, these numbers will continue to increase! Not America's fault, not Wall Street fault, and please don't blame "capitalism" for this. Poverty + large family size = more poverty. With advanced robotics coming up eliminating traditional jobs....poor capitalist pigs will have to think hard just to create jobs for the rapidly growing masses...here come degrees in cabinet organizing. One thing capitalism had provided in these countries--that wasn't there before--is medicine that prevents large childhood mortality--which caused population explosion...so yes, from that standpoint...capitalism was "responsible"...before, Mother Nature would just sort it all out.
kattz

climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
No need to read beyond that. If you don't understand the issue, it's unlikely you will come to any sort of correct conclusion.

Unlike you, I had spent half of my life living in communist/socialist society...speaking about capacity for "correct conclusions" on the matter.
kattz

climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
A modern person from the Western country comes into the world equipped with expectations of having an iphone, flush toilet in a heated room, spring mattress, indoor kitchen, best medical care in the world, ambulance available any time, police protection, washer and drier, microwave and, hopefully, a car...things that had been considered luxuries just recently and did not exist for the most years that humankind had been on earth...somehow, people now expect society to provide all that...while themselves they're pretty ruthless specimens, usually, and certainly not going to take care of ailing parents, etc, but rather see them in the nursing home (and parents themselves want to dump the kids off asap, to their separate lives)...this is the picture of pre-socialist America...
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
Dingus posted
What does that even mean and once defined, prove it...

I Googled "does capitalism lift people out of poverty"
Here's a couple on the first page.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim

http://cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/bono-capitalism-takes-more-people-out-poverty-aid

Norton posted
would that not mean free of any "regulations"? has to be "pure"
free of prosecution for price fixing, monopolies I assume
by that definition I suppose America in the 1800's and early 1900's?

versus - the Great Depression resulted from largely unregulated financial markets
combined with zero government safety nets in place for the poor

sorry, I can't buy that pure unadulterated capitalism was good for - really anything

Good points all, but to put my point in context I added:
"Regulation for the good of the consumer is necessary because of intractable human nature"


The unadulterated version was 18th and 19th centuries. Eventually the robber barrens arrived and created their monopolies, etc., but it jump started this country pretty good.
I will add that because of slavery, you couldn't call the Southern states unadulterated capitalists.

I am not against regulation. It's good and necessary.
I am against over-regulation. That either leads to or is a symptom of crony capitalism and corruption.

Hope that clears up my point.
kattz

climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
The old familiar theme... (the lower is "the USA" part)



They're still the same...didn't change a bit:

And, as you can see, in capitalist countries people can't play violin:

Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 26, 2016 - 10:11pm PT
Unlike you, I had spent half of my life living in communist/socialist society...speaking about capacity for "correct conclusions" on the matter.

Oh. Then you should understand that modern democratic socialism and communism have absolutely nothing in common. It's pretty clear, however, that you don't.

Curt
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 26, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
Could it be that blind devotion to either rigid ideology is stupid? That careful and monitored and adjusted balancing can lead to the best outcomes for the most people?

Ding ding ding...winner winner.. chicken dinner.

But for that you must have representatives who work for the people...paid only by the people.
-----

No Reiley Bernie doesnt even want to be a communist. His use of the word socialist is even a bit disingenuous and more for shock value more than accuracy.

kattz

climber
Apr 26, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
Then you should understand that modern democratic socialism and communism have absolutely nothing in common. It's pretty clear, however, that you don't.

It's clear to you. :) Doesn't mean it's "clear" to everyone else....

"democratic socialism" is nothing but ideology of slow destruction of society and a cover word for very "undemocratic socialism"
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 26, 2016 - 10:22pm PT
"democratic socialism" is nothing but ideology of slow destruction of society and a cover word for very "undemocratic socialism"

Interesting. So, do you really think France, Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc. are all headed for disaster?

Curt
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 26, 2016 - 10:25pm PT
Depends on how you define "poverty" If you define it <$2.50 / day, global poverty has increased not deceased since the 1980s despite what Bono said ^^^

kattz...anyone in their right mind considers the former Soviet authoritarian communist regime under Stalin to be a complete failure. The problem is equating that regime with Bernie. IMO, there's a much greater risk of a totalitarian regime in this country under a Cruz presidency, for example. Fortunately, after today's primary results, there's almost no chance Lyin' Ted will be elected. Under Trump, there's a greater risk that the US will begin to resemble the current Russian plutocracy under Putin. IMO, under Hillary, the transition to Plutocracy might not proceed at the same pace as Trump but I doubt that she will be able to significantly improve income inequality in this country even with a Congress that might be more cooperative with the 1st woman president than they were with he 1st Black president.

Better chess players too with one exception...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 26, 2016 - 11:25pm PT
It's a wrap...
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Apr 27, 2016 - 06:52am PT
A bit lengthy, sorry. But Kos sums it up well...

Bernie Sanders effectively conceded last night.

"I congratulate Secretary Clinton on her victories tonight, and I look forward to issue-oriented campaigns in the 14 contests to come [...]

The people in every state in this country should have the right to determine who they want as president and what the agenda of the Democratic Party should be. That’s why we are in this race until the last vote is cast. That is why this campaign is going to the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia with as many delegates as possible to fight for a progressive party platform that calls for a $15 an hour minimum wage, an end to our disastrous trade policies, a Medicare-for-all health care system, breaking up Wall Street financial institutions, ending fracking in our country, making public colleges and universities tuition free and passing a carbon tax so we can effectively address the planetary crisis of climate change."

Sanders remains in it to amass delegates to influence the party platform. Heck, he may even make the usually worthless piece of paper mean something. Remember, no candidate is beholden to that platform, but if there really is juice behind the Sanders movement, it can help hold Democrats accountable to it.

Fact is, the party ails, and we need all the reinforcements we can to force change. That’s why party affiliation matters. If you want to ditch the (D) label to become an independent, reconsider. If you are a left-leaning independent, consider switching to (D). You want to influence the party and move it to where we all want it to go, you do it from the inside. Become or remain an independent, and you no longer have a say in the direction the party is going. Why would you surrender that chance? You prove nothing by being independent, other than that you don’t want to fight for your party. Of course you want to fight for it, your involvement in the Sanders campaign proved it! So if you really are part of a long-term movement, then do what real movements do, and fight to win!

You quit the party, and you make it a little easier for the as#@&%es in the Democratic Party to remain in control. They want you to quit. Please don’t.

Now I understand the pain so many of you are feeling. I’ve been on the losing end of more campaigns than I care to remember. I’ve poured my heart and soul into so many losing battles, on behalf of so many candidates I admired and respected and fervently wished to get elected, that I know exactly how Sanders’ supporters are feeling right now. It’s a sickening, dark place, one that I don’t wish on anyone who isn’t a Republican.

If you are a Clinton supporter, have some damn compassion, will you? You haven’t won yet. The primary? Who gives a shit! Donald Trump will win his too, and has he won sh#t yet? The real winner will get crowned in November. That’s the victory that matters. Beating another Democrats shouldn’t bring you any joy unless that Democrat is Joe Lieberman.

So why would you piss on people we need for November, not just for the White House but all those downballot races as well. How well do you think Clinton will do with a Republican Congress? We need everyone we can get. So maybe it’s time for some olive branches?

Also, be impressed. It’s not every day we get to see the creation of a whole new class of people excited about politics. Hillary certainly didn’t manage that. So it behooves you to harness as much of that energy as possible. Of course, Sanders people won’t be as excited about Clinton as you are, but who cares? There are more Democrats on the ballot than Clinton, and some of them are pretty awesome. Help them get excited about fixing our party.

If you are a Sanders supporter, you haven’t lost yet. I don’t mean the presidential contest, that was always an uphill fight. Yet you guys fought despite an indifferent media, despite a hostile establishment, and despite people like me harping on the “math”, and you proved lots of people wrong along the way (including me). I’m not embarrassed or angry or annoyed. I’m excited and in awe of what you were able to accomplish, and I fervently hope that 1) you stay engaged inside the Democratic Party, because that’s how we improve it, and 2) that you maintain that energy for the November elections (and looking ahead at what will be a brutally tough 2018 cycle). See? That’s how much I don’t hate Sanders, despite some suggestions to the contrary. I want his influence to continue inside my Democratic Party, where it can make a difference.

I don’t care if you are excited about Clinton or not, she’ll be fine. I care that you get excited about Democrats down the ballot, about giving Clinton a Congress that will push her to the Left even when she might not want to. Clinton doesn’t get to pass a $15 minimum wage. Congress does. You want strong climate change legislation? We don’t have a dictatorship. Congress has to pass it.

But don’t make the mistake, either, of thinking that Clinton is the evil harpy of so many caricatures. She’ll do good things, she’ll do great things, and she’ll do shitty things. Our job will be to apply the same kind of pressure we’ve applied all these years of the Obama presidency. And no matter what she might do with the executive branch, all of that will pale to that single Supreme Court pick Republicans are hell-bent on giving her.

For all the mistakes that President Bill Clinton made during his tenure, his Supreme Court picks weren’t any of them—Stephen Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. If anything, expect even better. The next pick will flip the court and the race will be on to relitigate all the sh#t the conservative court did to rig the electoral system in the GOP’s favor—from reversing Citizens United to stomping congressional gerrymandering to removing barriers to voting. This is not a country that easily enables political revolutions, but flipping the court will be a seismic shift in our nation’s course. And odds are, Clinton will get to make more than one pick for the High Court before her eight years are up.

So this matters. All of it matters. Work the inside game, help cleanse the party of the as#@&%es. Help good Democrats get elected. Let’s work for better legislation and better presidenting. And when 2024 rolls around, we’ll have an open slate primary, with an electoral system better suited for real democracy (thanks to the new Supreme Court), and a party more receptive to its grassroots.

Yeah, 2024 is a long way away. But 2016 was a long way away from 2008, when Obama was first elected, and we did little to build our bench. Heck, we went backwards thanks to 2010 and 2014. So time will inextricably move forward, and 2024 will eventually get here, and it’ll be the single best opportunity we have to elect a Bernie-style liberal. But building that starts now. Let’s develop a bench of lots of Bernie-style Dems!

So if you really are part of a movement, then congratulations! The odds are always against getting off the ground, but you accomplished that. The next step is to grow that movement. Make it happen.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Apr 27, 2016 - 07:04am PT
It was always a snowballs chance in hell. Despite the FACT that we have depended upon "socialist" programs for decades (even in the McCarthy era), the mere mention of socialism equates immediately to communism and a dictatorial regime. Kattz is a classic example of this. Don't forget to collect your social security check when the time comes Kattz.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 27, 2016 - 07:37am PT
Katz' cartoons are pretty funny. The second to last is a Stalinist 'joke' that subtly changes
Marx' famous quote to "Kapitalists of the world, unite!"


I found this kapitalist pigeon expressing himself on a statue of Marx in Moscow...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 27, 2016 - 09:50am PT
We're paying for Socialism already - but we're not getting it.

$22 trillion has been spent on The War On Poverty. That's enough money to pay every poor man, poor woman, and poor child in America $440,000 each. Why are there still 50,000,000 Americans living in poverty?

San Francisco spends $241,000,000 this year on its homeless problem. That's enough money to pay every homeless person they found in the latest annual Homeless Count $36,000 each. I know rent's sky-high in The City By The Bay, but I'm pretty sure I could find a place to live there for $3,000/mo. If nothing else is done but simply pass out checks to the homeless, $36,000 is three times the national poverty level.

The City By The Bay spends enough money to lift every single homeless person out of poverty, by a factor of three, but the homeless people aren't even given a pot to piss in.

How much more money's it going to take? If we spent a million dollars on each poor person - instead of about half that - could they find a way to get just ten percent of it into the poor person's pocket? That's a hard sell, judging by past results. Two times zero is still zero.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 27, 2016 - 09:55am PT
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/

Good article, a main point is Sanders is a Social Democrat not a Democratic Socialist.

Of course capitalism is a much more efficient and effective way to control production than socialism. People make better decisions when they directly see the impacts of their choices. As I've said before the Pilgrims in Plymouth tried socialism their first year and it was a disaster. The next year people kept what they produced and gave a part of it (tax) for the common good. And really that's been the basis of our country ever since.

However where Bernie's is on the right track IMO, is that almost all the increase in wealth and income over the last 30-40 years has all gone to the top 0.1%. I believe we should 1. cut wasteful govt. spending, 2. increase taxes on the 0.1% (people making multiple millions of dollars a year) not drastically but maybe 5-10%. 3. Reduce the budget deficit to maybe 5%, 4. Use any leftover money to fix infrastructure and provide more free education (two things that benefit the country as a whole and would probably help the 0.1% make enough money to cover their tax increase).

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 27, 2016 - 10:01am PT
$22 trillion has been spent on The War On Poverty. That's enough money to pay every poor man, poor woman, and poor child in America $440,000 each. Why are there still 50,000,000 Americans living in poverty?

Proof?

Corruption and inefficiencies are a problem in all govt. spending. A lot more is "wasted" by the military than in social programs. For example the 234 golf courses the military has. I'd rather pay taxes to have a single mom get childcare than have a general play golf.

So if you are talking about cutting social programs because of waste you really need to look at the military first because it's WAY more money.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this chart (e.g. what is "low income assistance") but it give a good visual representation of spending. Health care costs are a huge part of it.

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