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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 14, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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"I could speculate as to why those types would be more sensitive to mystical experience, but your regarded opinion would be more interesting."
Military people live with death! Climbers hang their asset's on the line?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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Base 104-
Temporary misunderstandings are an unavoidable feature of this online communication.
I have accordingly deleted the part of my thread that related to yours.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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I'm doing some critical big ass thinkin here
Yep ....
Some lame ass people that say there's no critical thinking can't think their way out of the grave.
That's why it's only one life and that's it for em.
They're stuck in a hole 6 feet under ......
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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And then they come up with this lame ass argument about DNA germs and bacteria.
Well my whole body is full of it.
Dead guys are full of DNA germs and bacteria.
But where did the guyin the body go? They have no clue and still they try and mislead the world that's all they have and in the future in the future in the future.
They been saying that for the last several thousand years.
The truth has always been right in front of em the whole time and they keep denying it there.
Blinder than any bat. Even bat has more brains .....
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Too good, jstan. First I thought, "This is as damning as reading up on religious history and a lot quicker." But began to worry about the quicker part.
Jan, no careful reader of this thread missed the X-Files-type reference. I thought you considered further comment to be possibly compromising to national security. If not, please give examples.
The thing is, as I see it, such deeply felt mystical experiences are not open to dispute. If someone tells you they felt something, the best assumption is that they did. But if you yourself are asked to take some action because of their experience you may legitimately choose not to.
I think it is wonderful that Karl senses a universal loving presence. I wonder why other people don't. He may say he was more open to the possibility, but that would have been part of his nature, before his experience. What I would like to see is a loving presence that can get into the heads of people who are not open to it and cause them to be more like Karl.
edit: bats have very good brains, Werner!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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Base!
My father lived for eighteen months after he had a massive stroke(brain hemorrhage) in 1989. Although he was brought up a Catholic and "religiously" got on his knees every night and morning and prayed, he had great difficulting in believing in a loving God. He had many questions similar to yours and others here. The two he had the most trouble with were "Why does He let the little ones suffer so" and "Who made God".
I will never forget the evening I returned home from bouldering(Mt Woodson) and was approached by my neighbor who informed me that he had been rushed to the hospital and would not make it through the night(according to the neuro Docs). And I had better hurry if I wanted to say goodbye.
I had always had faith that he would somehow come to believe(so did my brother). And as I drove down the freeway that evening I simply cried out with a broken heart to God "Nooo!" I immediately heard that would he would live and be saved. It was a voice(not audible)but I recognised it.
When I arrived at the hospital, I was fully assured of his survival and redemption. And told everyone so. The MD's (neurosurgeons, neurologists)nurses etc. thought I was either crazy or in denial(or both). To make a long story short(as per your request)he lived. MD's said it was a miracle!! And he did turn his life to Christ. Surprisingly on his own, for I said little in regards to the subject.
He did shortly there after take a bad fall at the nursing home and went back into a coma. My mother almost lost the house(Medical costs) and all I can say without writing a book is that it was a very bad 18 months. Decubitus ulcers and bed sores literally to the bone, infections and pneumonia...etc.
I went in every other day to help and be with him, as did my mother and brother on opposite days. No one could possibly know everything we went through(I'M sure you can relate). We just wanted God to take him home/Heaven. I can still here his nonstop moans of pain as I type this.
Finally after 18 months I broke down. It was a long night, and I am sure I cursed God and hoped I would dye at least once in the process.
The next day it was my turn with my dad, and just as I was about to leave, this old man, 99 yrs old, Just 6 days short of 100, asked me for a washcloth. He had been there about a week and had never said a thing. The nurses had told me the day before that he was dying of the most painful type of cancer that a man could die of and would not make it to his 100th birthday, just 6y days away.
I had long since given up on reaching anyone in the nursing homes. Not that I had made a great effort but I would pray for an opportunity and wait. With one lady three months of waiting before I even mentioned I was a Christian.
Well that afternoon I did say a brief prayer as I was leaving that went like this "Well Lord if You want to reach this guy You are going to have to do it."
So I give him the wash cloth he requested and, thinking this is my chance to initiate a conversation, I say "I here you are going to be 100 in five days and the nurses say you're going to make it"(I don't know why I said that). And he says "Oh I hope not, I am in so much pain...I just hope God lets me into Heaven!' My wife and I never joined a religion, we thought about it when we were young, but we never found the time. I just hope God lets me into Heaven."
And I simply told him that I had never joined a religion either, but that I had read that Jesus said that if we confess Him before men that He would remember us and confess us before the angels in Heaven. He said he believed that and asked to be led in the sinners prayer and I obliged him.
I pretty much forgot about it until the next day when my brother arrived home and announced that "I didn't know that old man was a Christian? He is telling everyone about Jesus" etc. etc.
It was at that point that I was hit very hard with the humbling realization that the Lord did have a purpose for keeping my father alive all those months. My father died at 2:30AM that very night. And the old man a day later.
I know many will say "Well if God is this, and if God is that why didn't He just let your father not suffer and get someone else to reach the old man"? etc. etc. Well like a very wise man once said..."The Lord works in mysterious ways!" Ben Franklin.
And I learned to never doubt what the Lord is doing in my life and the world!
Trip~
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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What a lame statement! As if Christians don't think. For instance Dostoevsky, or C.S. Lewis weren't critical thinkers! Or Copernicus, or Sir Isaac Newton for that matter!
Who is talking about the 1% edge cases? You're posting up original thought, is that something Gobee can't manage here, or is Werner right about needing a PhD? I definitely don't read his posts, any more than I'd be reading Greek Mythology, Tolkein, Anderson, or any number of other fictions if you started posting them too.
Werner, I have no interest in another life. But again, how do you know there is an original thinker who knows all?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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Then go rot in a hole.
There's no argument here, and discussion.
Step over the fence for 10 years then talk .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:19am PT
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jstan!
I am in full agreement with John MacArthur. I have read several of his books(I just finished "Standing Strong")and read/study from his website(GTY) on a daily/weekly basis. He is referring to two/three different areas, one being the "emerging church" and/or "seeker friendly church" and the "health and wealth" preachers.
I mentioned the seven churches in Revelations, and believe they are described there in. Nothing new! A sign of the times, if you will!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:31am PT
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Not ready for a hole (and hope I won't end up buried).
You're pretty good a spouting absolutes, but not very good at explaining how it is you know they're so absolute. Have to hand it to you there - so much better than science, which has its hands tied by the necessity of results being reproducable by anyone.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:36am PT
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Understanding the absolute truth is reproducible by anyone.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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Wow! The length and depth of this topic are epic. I've glanced into it a few times previously but am finally in for my 2 cents!
I find that the best of people I know who are "scientifically minded" is reflected through what I consider to be their "spiritual qualities." I also generally find that the best of people I know who are "spiritually minded" is reflected through what I consider to be a "scientific quality" they have.
By "scientific" I mean that what a person progressively perceives / experiences of quantifiable existence is constantly being evaluated against past data in an ongoing search for concepts that explain/align the related data for understanding and utility.
By "spiritual" I mean that a person is engaged with experience / communication that concerns to a large degree relatively unmeasurable qualities to the relative exclusion of measurable quantities. This can also include extremely quantifiable perceptions obtained by unquantifiable means.
As practical examples:
Joe is "scientific," studied and works in the sciences, thinks in equations frequently, fascinated with applications of his knowledge to everything from bicycles to climate change. But the best thing about him is the sense you get from him that you are valuable, that he cares how you are doing, and that all of the things that reflect his scientific interests are governed by this overall caring and good will toward people and life in general.
Fred is "spiritual," studies spiritual/religious/philosophic materials of a particular kind, prays or meditates frequently, spends time on related activities and trying to help others in various ways. But the best thing about him is that he doesn't buy into a black/white, them/us routine, or hating existence as Evil while worshiping the spiritual as Good. He sorts out life around him in a very scientific way: absolutes are pretty much unobtainable, there are gradients of most everything, there is a lot to be understood and taken into account and there are opportunities to learn and understand things of a very practical manner every day.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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My god, from what's been said on this thread, and with no secret handshake, you christians must just have a hell of a time deciding who's a real christian and who isn't. To some it's not the churchgoers, Jennie claims it's all in the 'commitment', MacArthur claims to be able to spot false prophets, the catholics say it's the pope who decides. And we can guess what the televangelists would say. Damned if that isn't a lot of fingerpointing and maybe even religious evolution at work before our very eyes - survival of the purest or the purient? At the very least, I think we can definitely rule out Intelligent Design - I'd never hang anything this messy on that.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 02:47am PT
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That's the correct way to go Joe, don't be taking any sides until you test it for own self.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:01am PT
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...don't be taking any sides until you test it for own self.
But Werner, the damn christians can't seem to decide on what the original thinker originally thought. There are too many sides and that doesn't even get into hindu, bhuddist, or jewish sects.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:03am PT
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healyje!
Not realy sure what to say right now, other than I enjoy reading what everyone has to say and glad all are putting their 2 cents in! That is what life is about. Wasn't insinuating you were lame, obviously you are very bright. I was just saying that Gobee comes up with some real pertinent stuff from the Bible relating to and often supporting what is being discussed. Sometimes you have to look for it, or it might be in regards to what someone else was commenting on. Oh well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:08am PT
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Werner - which of those check boxes above should I click for the absolute truth? I tried to google for it but got nine million hits (...must have to use the 'Advanced Search' option)...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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You'll never understand it correctly that way.
Just like trying to understand climbing El Cap without ever having climbed.
Just look at LEB.
You have to come out of the dugout and step up to the plate .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 15, 2009 - 03:51am PT
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healyje!
How about a non-denominational church? Probably one near you!
To begin you have to be sincere. Only you and God can know that. Sincere and admit that you don't know for 100% that there is a God or not!
I believe God needs to convict you of your own need for Him. Take a close look at yourself. Have you ever been bitter towards anyone for instance.
Base has admitted he has fallen short in many ways. This is a good start.
Then admit it to God. And tell Him that you are not sure that Jesus Christ is God, but if He is I would like to ask Him into my Heart.
I would suggest reading the Gospel of John. Ask God to help you with understanding it. If you are sincere, and I am sure you are if you get that far, then He will. Those are all acts of faith!
I became a Christian at 8 yrs old, by such a simple act of faith as calling out to Him(Jesus) for help.
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