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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Don't even bother responding, as it's just plain sarcasm ......
I'm just saying what Crimpergirl has said before using my own words. When there's guns everywhere, the chances are much higher than elswhere that something starting as quarelling ends up with a gun - escalation until one part fires a gun.
A simple fact...
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Norton.... Kent state went on for several seconds only... I think that after a few days of shooting armed civilians... the military types might change their minds because they would be shooting people who pretty much believe the same way.
And who would be issuing these "shoot to kill and grab the guns" orders?
Nancy Pelosi? Chuck Shumer? Hillery Clinton? Bernie Sanders??
or some other two-bit liberal.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings? International Comparisons Suggest an Answer
where one lives makes a huge difference as regards death by firearm, particularly mass murder
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html
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Guyman, what does the number of seconds it takes to kill have anything to do with our military killing civilians? Should the troops have used bow and arrows on the college kids instead of rifles so it took longer? The point is that yes our military will kill civilians
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Why don't they study the connection between psychoactive prescription drugs and mass shootings???
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Guyman, what does the number of seconds it takes to kill have anything to do with our military killing civilians? Should the troops have used bow and arrows on the college kids instead of rifles so it took longer? The point is that yes our military will kill civilians
Yes they will... but give some time to think about what they are doing...
Norton... thanks for looking up something I have already looked into. You don't need to do that for me.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2017 - 11:58am PT
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DMT: Yes the 2nd amendment or its legal interpretation must change to effect change- but society talking about it and forming a target vision for change must come first.
"do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks? Drop Nuclear bombs?" War is an ugly naked power grab by any and all means. Governments will do whatever is necessary to citizens to keep them in check. Normally they can be suppressed by simple means (tear gas, rubber bullets, disinformation campaigns, arrests, back-room torture of key individuals) so we don't often see the public violent escalations in the USA. But some examples of what governments do if their milder remedies are ineffective:
Some governments that have used chemical/biological weapons on their own rebelling citizens:
 Syria
Iraq
Afghanistan
Vietnam
Laos
Germany
pre-USSR (Tambov)
(extracted from http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/chembioattacks.html);
This is not considering other forms of extreme violence, like the Tiananmen Square Massacre in China, or USA National Guard shooting unarmed civilian protestors at Kent State (relatively minor), or the scorched earth policy during the USA Civil War (Sherman's Savannah campaign). Or the atrocities in Bosnia, Chechnia, pick any country in Africa, Central America, South America. I think escalating violence and abuse of power is more the rule than the exception. One might argue that the most basic goal of government is to transform a society from a collection of individuals where decisions are made based on violent force (i.e. "freedom from regulations"), to one where decisions are made based on established rules, and the rules are subject to change through non-violent methods. Using guns to change a government perpetuates a cycle where the government can't serve it's most basic function- to reduce physical violence experienced by the citizenry.
So I still completely disagree with guns justified as a means of balancing the power of our government. But I have shifted my perspective on guns for personal defense (after thinking about comments from 'fear' and 'guyman').
The reason is more of a game-theory one. Why do baby birds chirp loudly in a nest even though that behavior leads more often to their death by predators? The problem is when one bird starts, they all have to do it to get attention from mommy or they starve. It is a balance of conflicting threats. Our world of guns is sort of like that... as soon as the guns are unleashed on the world, safety would require that each person needs one for self-defense against others with guns, or they are at higher risk of dying. And yet the result of that dynamic is more overall dying! So I accept the tragedy that many people feel the need to defend themselves with guns, and that it should be a right, and an unavoidable consequence of this is more overall violence.
People who have had the good fortune to avoid violent encounters will try to optimize for a reduction of overall violence, while those who have experienced violence will be more likely to optimize for their personal and/or family safety. In other words, violence begets violence!
In this light, violence itself is a contagious disease that spreads, in action and in mindset. We need a societal mechanism to deal with this contagion. We have the CDC to help deal with the spread of health epidemics. What is the right agency to deal with the spread of the epidemic of violence?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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And the whole argument about armed citizens being no match for the US Military.
On the surface, on paper, that is true... but do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks? Drop Nuclear bombs?
The problem with that theory is that when the military coup comes the 2nd amendment crowd will not be fighting the military. They'll be cheering them on. And ratfinking on suspicious neighbors.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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But I have shifted my perspective
Man, are you some Nutty Liberal or what?
;^)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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...violence itself is a contagious disease that spreads...
No it's not.... and chosing to carry a firearm to defend yourself isn't a violent act. There are plenty of people who carry firearms every day, including cops, who've never drawn their gun.
Violence has it's root causes in every individual incident. It's not some nefarious plague as you describe it. Unfortunately the media only indoctrinates people into that viewpoint.
Most of the murders and violence in our own failed empire come downstream from the War on Drugs and all the false economies and exploitation that it creates from the thugs on the corner in Compton to the marines guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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I think that after a few days of shooting armed civilians... the military types might change their minds because they would be shooting people who pretty much believe the same way.
Where do you come up with this crap?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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EDIT... To remove uncalled for negativity.
10B ... I get these ideas from my head and I sometimes trust my gut feelings.. .
The same gut feelings predicted the Trump Victory of 1 year ago.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Fet, the original amendment had a typo and an accidental word switch...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The 2nd Amendment was never intended to give citizens the right to fight against a tyrannical Government, that is complete BS.
Taking up arms against the Government is called treason no matter what you think about your Gov.
The 2nd amendment was added so the Government will not need a standing army by the way of a "well regulated militia", AND to give arms to Slave Patrols so they could intimidate blacks to stay in line.
We do not have these issues anymore, so we really have no reason to allow the right to bear arms.
If you take up arms against the Government the Police will take you out as fast as they can, if you live past that, the SWAT Team will kill you, if you stay alive even after all that fire power, the FBI will come and bomb your ass to high heaven.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Guyman, than you agree we don't need guns.
Moose... you are a funny man, I never said that.
You don't need a gun Moose, if you don't wish to own one. This is a free country.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
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Violence has it's root causes in every individual incident. It's not some nefarious plague as you describe it.
I will make a subtle distinction in way of disagreeing with you:
1. Each incident has context and potential triggers for people.
2. Each person has a choice for how to act in the presence of the context and the stimuli
Some people are not equipped to make a conscious choice, and respond in a limbic manner (lizard-brain "fight or flight" if you will). But it is within the power of each individual to choose, through a combination of will-power exercised in the moment and appropriate training/preparation ahead of time to reorient the autonomous fight/flight responses to different stimuli, to become consciously aware of the pre-signals before conscious choice is lost in limbic response. This is what Anger Management classes try to do.
With this model, I still see the violence itself as a contagion. It is replicated when it becomes part of the programming of each individual and affects their future responses when survival instincts are triggered. In other words, the violence that one receives through sensory input (analogous to receiving a cold virus into the mucous membranes) is more likely to be replicated or spread to other people as soon as there is a weaker target to unload it. Sometimes if there is not a weaker target available, a person turns the stored energy of violence onto self, and sometimes it just hibernates until a weaker target presents itself, like children of the next generation or the employees of a new boss. Some people learn non-destructive ways of releasing the negative energy of violence, but not enough. And everyone has a different limit/capacity for absorbing and effectively dissipating the negative energy before they become conduits for passing it on.
Tying this back in to guns: violence is a contagion, and guns are a means of more efficient distribution of the contagion.
Edit: Just had a follow-up thought relating to violent TV shows (or sports or news for that matter). Violence in our media is extremely widespread, and many (including me) wonder about how that exposure to violence might increase our own violent tendencies. I am now wondering if it actually has, instead of or in addition to, the opposite effect: as a psychic release for our own stored negative energy- like we get to virtually unload that crap without having to physically unload it on to someone weaker or find another way of dissipating it.
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c wilmot
climber
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If violence is a contagion then why do we allow refugees from violent countries like El Salvador to come to America?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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refugees are fleeing violence
should we not give them refuge like a good humanitarians
or let them die at the hands of El Salvadorian authoritarian death squads
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c wilmot
climber
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El Salvador is far more dangerous than America
Don't be silly
Edit:
I am asking nutagain- if violence is a contagion- then why do we allow the alleged vectors of said contagion to settle here?
Are we not importing more problems?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I think other countries should publicize the fact that America is a risk of Death by all the millions of guns in the hands of the mentally impaired, and they should not visit our country for their personal security.
If you get shot by a gun, you better have big bucks to pay all your medical bills, since the shooter is not responsible for your injuries.
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