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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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The big question is how much cheating will have to go on for the GOP to hold onto congress.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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yes Fluoride in our drinking water in addition to chemtrails, OMG
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I thought our thoughts and prayers already went out, didn't they get them?
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has the tape of Trump in a Russian hotel room watching prostitutes urinate on the bed, at his request the same bed that President Obama and his wife slept in when they visited Russia - google pee pee tape, better than Bill and Monica?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Yeah, Norton, ask yourself: have you ever seen an Illuminati drink a glass of water?
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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MSNBC cable news, Huffington Post are two definitely left leaning outlets
CNN however, does not lean left nor right, they strive for and achieve a no bias
but since you, twice banned New World Order, have stated CNN is "liberal"
prove it honey boo boo, prove they lie and lie in such a way that benefits the left
in the same way it has been proven that Fox lies to benefit the right
let us hear about all the lies CNN tells? every heard of not knowing your azz from second base?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Norton, how can you prove they don’t have a bias? Every reporter has a bias as evidenced merely by their choice of verbs, adverbs, and adjectives. They ALWAYS report that a plane ‘plummeted’ to the earth when usually that is completely fake.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Len Bias died of a drug overdose which was supplied by Kapoor.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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New World Order- "Poor, poor snowflakes are losing their minds. Off their meds"
"That's all you got, Gary? Weak sauce?"
"You're in denial, Nortloon. Good luck with that."
"Come on, dewwwed. Challenge my contentions, or at least the Libtard articles."
^For reals??!! Now that, ladies and gentlemen is fake news.
"Lol....Stray from the subject, much?"
"You're in denial, Nortloon. Good luck with that."
HELP ME!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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holy sh#t NaF2 is a rodenticide guyz!
stop using fluorinated anythin'!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
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I would like to hear more from 2nd Amendment defenders, especially on the following concept:
I interpret the 2nd Amendment to be a mechanism for people to rise up against what is perceived as an oppressive government, in the manner that led to the creation of the United States of America. The idea is to provide a sort of balance of power between individuals and the government.
In the USA today, this idea of individual rights being secured against the government by any number of guns is a farce. The technological changes in the world in the last centuries have dramatically changed the power equations between individuals and governments. No assemblage of individuals with unlimited firearms can overcome the lethal force that the United States government can bring with near-omnipresent surveillance, remotely target weaponry and drones, nuclear and chemical weapons, etc. What is a roomful or city-full of AK-47s in that context? Ridiculous. So maybe they can be leveraged to take control of a nuclear missile silo or to bomb a chemical weapons plant? Is that scenario what the 2nd amendment is for? I don't think so.
So the idea of using physical force to ensure our citizens are protected from government overreach is ridiculous. That said, the problem of government overreach is potentially real. The mechanisms to deal with it successfully, if that is possible at this stage, is not going to be through guns, at least not directly. Maybe widespread civil war and lethal fighting will shut down businesses and destroy tax revenue and effectively starve the government of money... but honestly, I am more worried about corporations and wealthy organizations abusing me than I am worried about my government abusing me.
At least I have a voice in the government via voting, public protest, spreading of information, etc., to effect change in government. I have no such powers against corporations or wealthy organizations that exist primarily to increase their own wealth. At least our government has a formal charter to support the rights of citizens, even if it becomes bent and twisted in the ongoing power struggles of humanity.
It is pretty ironic that an idea and right granted to protect citizens from the government has been subverted and used as a distraction to enable our citizens to lose more rights in the face of an oppressive government. If people weren't so emotionally distracted by this issue, they might have more space to be rational and consider what are the real threats in our society that weaken citizens in the face of government:
1. a government more responsive to corporate rights than citizen's rights
2. a government unable and unwilling to ensure its citizens have reasonable access to:
 clean air
clean water
healthy food sources
education sufficient to earn a living above poverty
healthcare sufficient to not live in misery and penury
These are the fundamental requirements of life in our modern interconnected world, for individuals to have the means to make positive contributions to society. Without these things, all the self-directed efforts of citizens to better themselves, and indirectly benefit our society, come to naught. The status quo encourages loss of hope, a life of crime, or an escape to an agrarian subsistence cut off from the modern world.
How exactly are guns part of the equation to resolve these pressures on the citizenry? OK, I'll grant you the following ways that guns help:
hunting food to live a hunter/gather or agrarian existence
defend against fellow citizens (or non-citizens) who have abandoned hope in the system and turn to a life of crime
This last one would seemingly tear a hole in the entire argument against guns... and is perhaps why the issue is overall so hotly debated. Rather than treating the symptoms, why don't we invest more in solving the root problems? Why do people abandon hope in the system and turn to a life of crime? If this problem was better managed, we wouldn't have to defend against as many fellow humans. And obviously the legality of guns doesn't lead to more defense against gun massacres- it just enables more of them. Adding guns to the system in theory might defend against these people, but it also arms more of them, negating the benefits of the defense, and thus undermining the argument for keeping guns to protect against other people.
I think the long-term solution will have to honor the use of guns as a utility for hunting food or protecting livestock against predators, for people pursuing an agrarian life (where a need for personal responsibility to secure defense against other humans might be more important too). But guns in the name of self-defense in an urban context, or as protection from the government, is a positive feedback system that destroys our society.
Maybe our urban vs rural voting patterns show that we have a broad agreement on these concepts, even if they aren't typically discussed in these explicit terms.
Thoughts?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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There's a big misconception about what the 2nd amendment really means.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Love it Fet!
I keep 'em for zombies, mainly, Nut.
And the impending American descent into a Mad Max-esque world of self-defense or doom. I hope.
Really though, a breakdown of digitalized, electrified petroindustrial and , say, city water infrastructure could really cause localized martial law type problems in the very short term. I mean I like my neighbors and all, but if they turn zombie....
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
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^^^ I have actually considered owning a firearm for this post-civilization scenario...
But then I thought it's a matter of dying fast or slowly. No matter how many guns I buy or how well I train with them, somebody will have more than me and in the absence of a law-abiding society, they'll kill me and take my stuff.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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It’s a very high standard akin to conceding free speech or the right to associate.
I would argue that the 1st amendment has been happily trampled on several times in the past. The 2nd amendment seems more akin to some holy writ. As you say, Dingus, the body count will have to get a lot higher. Or a few more incidents like the assault at the Republican congressional baseball game.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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...No matter how many guns I buy or how well I train with them, somebody will have more than me and in the absence of a law-abiding society, they'll kill me and take my stuff....
I hear this defeatist attitude bleated frequently. The other is fearing your own gun used against you.
And although being overrun may prove to be true I can't fathom the rationale behind not fighting to the best of your ability. This includes not only the best tools available but the proper attitude and planning.
Firearms are used every single minute around the world by people in defense.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Firearms are used every single minute around the world by people in defense.
That's not so. Exclude war and people usually argue or walk away to defend themselves, they don't fire a gun. In America with the extreme prevalence of guns, too many people end up arguing with their guns...
That's a simple fact.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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What does the Supreme Court actually say?
On pp. 54 and 55, the majority opinion, written by conservative bastion Justice Antonin Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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The Second Amendment says
because we are still at war against King George of England we need to be prepared
therefore states should maintain a loosely organized ability to call men together as needed to be ready to fight George, we call them Militias
and because there is no official government source of Black Powder Muskets we want each citizen to have their own musket ready when called to fight George
so we will call this the Second Amendment to our new Constitution
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nut ... all due respects.
I think people who think like you have never been in a position where you need to defend your Family or Yourself.
I hope it never happens to you or your family.
It will absolutely change your mind.
The police are not here to protect you and your Family, they can not get there to help you. You must be able to help yourself.
And the whole argument about armed citizens being no match for the US Military.
On the surface, on paper, that is true... but do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks? Drop Nuclear bombs?
Simple people were able to overthrow the oppressive government of Nicaragua, who had tanks and planes with pistols.. and guts.
If you can remember that.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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but do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks?
yes, absolutely
IF our civilian government orders our military to do that then yes, they are under orders to do whatever they are told
one needs to only remember Kent State, when college kids were protesting the Vietnam war and National Guard troops fired on them and killed and wounded them
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WBraun
climber
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In America with the extreme prevalence of guns, too many people end up arguing with their guns..
Says the guy living in Norway, LOL.
Don't even bother responding, as it's just plain sarcasm ......
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