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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Jennie!
It reads..."Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who will inherit salvation?"
It says nothing about them having a soul!
They are spirits!
We are body soul and spirit.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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OK You're using a different translation than I.
How does soul essence differ from from spirit essence?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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They should just worship healyje as god.
He's got all those big ass fancy words that explain everything.
Yep
He'll make a good one.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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Yes, exactly, but one can't have a "personal relationship" with such a generalized concept.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Kevin
I'm scared to death leading your climbs on middle.
I will now worship you .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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Jennie!
1 Thessalonians 5:23 reads "And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole body, soul and spirit be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The ordinary concept of the human being is dualistic-body and soul and is of fallen man not God and inaccurate. That the body(the corporal) is the outer sheath is correct. But the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as being the same!
It is of supreme importance to know the difference, the spirit of man is that which is capable of uniting with and communicating with the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit).
Hebrews 4:12 divides mans non corporeal into two parts "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..." Romans 8:16.
Through the corporal body we come into contact with the material world, giving us world consciousness. The soul comprises the intellect which aids us in the present state of existence, and the emotions, which proceed from the senses.
The soul reveals mans own self or personality, self-conscious.
The spirit is the part that comunes with God and by which alone we are able to apprehend and worship Him. It is the element of God-consciousness.
God dwells in the spirit. Self dwells in the soul. And the senses dwell in the body.
The soul is the merging point between spirit and body.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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The whole of human history and achievement would seem to just be an attempt by us to develop a greater range of choices than we were presented with as an animal. But that is still a really small subset of what GOD has.
Thanks Rokjox! That's one of the more quotable quotes I've seen on this thread.
How can God hold us to blame if we can only take a path he set up?
Within every path, preordained or not, there are choices. Of course these choices involve human behavior, or morality to use the old fashioned word, which has not been much discussed on this thread.
The quibble I have with religious people is that they tend to get hung up on specifics for every situation and decision, instead of going by a general law of love and compassion.
The problem I have with the atheist crew is that they maintain they are as moral or more than religious people which is certainly true in the first generation which was raised with a religion that was rejected.
What we don't know is the societal effect of subsequent generations raised without ideas of accountability. Experiments with scientific atheism in the Soviet Union and Maoist China do not give much comfort along these lines.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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I don't recall volunteering. And why not simply turn worship to the world as it is, not as you require it to be?
The whole of human history and achievement would seem to just be an attempt by us to develop a greater range of choices than we were presented with as an animal.
We are, at every turn, only presented with the same range of choices as animals - it's the nature of life on this planet. Judging by our continued unconsidered use of resources we are making 'choices' on par with mold on a piece of bread.
The conceit in the necessity to be anything but an animal I find lamentable.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Jan, personal accountability is the crux of self-actualization beyond a doubt. In general, religion tries to superimpose imaginary external authority figures and/or processes in an effort to suppress the darker aspects of human nature. They fail, however, IMO, precisely because of the imaginary basis of those concepts, viz: "The devil made me do it," "Jesus will forgive me" or "Must be some bad karma" are examples of the loopholes that short-circuit faith-based efforts at behavioral control. At that point the apologetics begin, but at that point the damage is already done.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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The problem I have with the atheist crew is that they maintain they are as moral or more than religious people which is certainly true in the first generation which was raised with a religion that was rejected.
What we don't know is the societal effect of subsequent generations raised without ideas of accountability. Experiments with scientific atheism in the Soviet Union and Maoist China do not give much comfort along these lines.
Your comments reveal that you know nothing about the subject. We already know what consecutive generations raised on religion have brought us. I'll take my chances with the athiest/agnostic crowd. If anything I'd be more worried about kids raised on Xbox and Wii.
I am the product of at least 3 generations of free thought, agnostic or otherwise a-religious thinking. The morals and ethics throughout my family are quite intact. As if atheism just sprang up recently. Get real.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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I appreciate the answer TripL7.
Soul/spirit issues, when persued, will come down to definitions and semantics, I believe. The ancient Hebrews appear to have had no conception of the soul although they certainly had concept of body/spirit. The assumption of "soul" seems to have originated with the Greeks. I wonder to what extent that particular Greek influence prejudiced New Testament writers.
If the soul comprises the intellect, and angels are without soul, does it follow that angels are without intellect ? It would be easy to assume, from that, angels are also without free will, personality etc. And considering angels loyalty to God....if that loyalty is not based in intellect or will, what compells their actions? Are we to assume being driven by the the "Spirit" accounts no free agency? If that is the case, what elevates angels above mindless robots ?
........not agreeing, entirely, but grateful for your explanation !
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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The problem I have with the atheist crew is that they maintain they are as moral or more than religious people which is certainly true in the first generation which was raised with a religion that was rejected.
Only 16% of Americans are religiously unaffiliated, and that includes agnostics, so the number of Atheists is likely in single digits. The means almost all the crime in the U.S. is committed by the religious - particularly white collar crime. We won't even get into adultery and divorce among the religious - it would so far outstrip Atheists as to be laughable.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Genuine religion requires commitment....not merely affiliation.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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Sweden is said to be the most atheistic country in the world (80% of Swedes do not believe in God). You know how crazy those Swedes can be. Bunch a murderin' psychopaths mostly.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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Well, I once heard a Dane sneer that "Swedes are just Germans disguised as human beings." I don't know what that says about creationism, but it's a pretty clever put-down.
Sorry for interrupting. I'll leave now.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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What a dysfunctional group.
No foundation to stand on.
No wonder yer all trying to kill each other, both intellectually and physically.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Stone has no soul ......
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Nope .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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bc-
I can't speak to the atheist ethics of you or your family, but the tone of your post indicates that you are at least lacking in manners.
You might be surprised at what I know about anthropology and history.
Concerning history, it is a fact that what was done in the name of communism combined with modern technology, killed more people numbers wise, than the crusades, witch burnings, and religious wars ever did, to the tune of millions. Throw in nazism which may or may not have been atheistic, and for sure, no contest.
The problem with all these philosophies which killed people for their own good, for the sake of the world, or the greater good, or whatever, is that they put idealogies and utopian long term goals above actual human beings. Frankly, I don't see any difference here between religion and secular idealogies, except that modern religious people are pretty aware of the damage that kind of fanaticism can do, whereas modern atheists seem surprisingly naive in their assumptions about the rationality of human beings.
In terms of anthropology, I will say again, that something like religion which has served humanity well for at least 300,000 years fulfills important needs and functions, which can not be done without by the majority of people. It's pure hubris to think that a small elite of rational, educated atheists represent the majority of human beings on this planet. It also goes against the findings of modern psychology to think that humans are better motivated by logic than the promise of rewards whatever they may be.
Historically, anthropologically, and psychologically, it is of greater benefit to modernize the religions we have or invent newer better ones, and to emphasize more universalizing ethics for all of them, than to try to convert the masses to atheism.
None of the above reasoning of course, addresses the actual "truth" of God or spiritual ideas.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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What next?
Jan's a lot smarter than most of you dysfunctional no foundation principals.
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