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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:29pm PT
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I think Ed should get a prize, Mighty Hiker, when he chewed through the bag and left he was #400!! lrl
ps...I agree with Moosie.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:48pm PT
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John,
Here is what does not make sense to me.
If god created this place and all that is in it and yet humans create things that are independent of god how can god be in control of everything? How can he/she be in control of anything?
Is "god" selective on what he/she controls?
"It is humans who created the ego/carnal mind. This was not part of the plan of God, yet God gave us free will so He/She allows it for a time. The ego/carnal mind has created much of the mess on this planet."
So god is letting us flounder around for a time until he/she deems "times up!"?
What will happen when time is up?
Will all be good?
Will we be able to learn from our mistakes or has "god" decided to have us go through this little exercise of the ego/carnal mind just for his/her amusement?
" The ego/carnal mind is a creation of man, Just as religion is."
If the ego/carnal mind is a creation of man ( and "god" had no place in it) then our very existence, or our awareness of the self, is a creation of man and "god" has no place in our existence.
If religion is a creation of man, then buy default, so is "god".
Now what?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 11, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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If we accept that the universe is ruled by an omnipotent God then life is just a very big board game.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 11, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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Good questions Doug, Let me see if I can answer a few.
"Will we be able to learn from our mistakes or has "god" decided to have us go through this little exercise of the ego/carnal mind just for his/her amusement?"
Some have learned from their mistakes. Jesus is an example. Buddha is also an example. Contrary to modern Christianity's teaching, Jesus was just as human as you or I. He made mistakes and he had to correct them, that is if he wanted to overcome suffering. He did and he did.
Here are some important things for you to think about.
The world has multiple purposes. One is to teach us how to grow into Being God. Jesus said, do you not know that "ye are Gods". We have the capacity to be God. This planet is a teaching environment. One way it teaches is to mirror back to us everything we believe. So if we believe that God is mean, then that will be mirrored back to use. If we believe that life is difficult, then that will be mirrored back to use in the circumstances we experience. There is truth in the statements about positive thinking, yet they do not go far enough. For to be truly free, one has to clear ones subconscious as well as ones conscious.
"So god is letting us flounder around for a time until he/she deems "times up!"
We had teachers, we ignored them. There is a saying, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. What this means is that there are always learning opportunities, we just need to make ourselves ready and willing.
"What will happen when time is up?"
A number of things are possible. This is a rather complex topic and more in depth answers can be found on the website I showed you.
There is something called the second death. There is no eternal hell. That is a fiction. The cleansing fires of hell burn for eternity, but God would not demand that a being of his/her creation suffer for eternity. Instead what happens is that a Being that is suffering is sent to what is called the second death. What happens is that the being is given the opportunity to see what is causing its suffering, ( its own beliefs ) and then change and have another chance here on Earth to grow in wisdom of how not to create suffering. If the being choses not to learn, then the beings energy is dissolved back into the allness of God. No suffering, that is a false teaching. Just dissolution.
Why? Because God will not allow a part of itself to suffer for eternity. That would be insanity.
There is much much more to understand about this, but books have already been written and I don't want to repeat these works.
You can free yourself from suffering. God is real. God is Love. Life is meant to be good but we do have dominion. The path forward is through discovering each of the untruths you have buried in your subconscious then making a better choice. I will not give you false hope. The path is still a path. There is no one quick fix. You are responsible for every decision you have made. That is what it means to be God. Yet you have the power to change those decisions.
If you are suffering, it is because of a choice you made somewhere in the past. Many people are angry with God because of they are suffering and to them it appears that they did not create this suffering. What has been lost to their conscious mind is that they have had many lifetimes to make poor choices and to create their suffering. What has also been lost to their consciousness is that God has always been there and been ready to help. We just chose not to listen to that help.
Picture a truculent teenager who just wont listen to his parent and you have the condition of most people on this planet. Yet it has gone on for so long that the teenager has convinced himself that he doesn't have parents just waiting to help.
God will not force you to listen. That is the ultimate meaning of free will. Yet God is always there and is waiting for you to want to listen.
Just don't expect some burning bush or some voice to reach out to you. You have much blocking your ability to hear. It will take effort to overcome that. Spiritualist describe the voice of God as that still small voice within. Do you always listen to it, or do you occasionally listen to the ego telling something else?
The choice is yours.
Edit: Sorry for the length of this post. Life really is simple, yet deeply deeply complex. That is a Koan that if you can understand, then you will be well on your way to freeing yourself from suffering.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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John,
Good debate.
Can you name anyone besides Jesus or Buddah that have truly "learned from their mistakes" as you suggest with Jesus or Buddah?
I agree about positive thinking and that this life or the earth is a teaching environment but...
In my mind I believe life is good and I also do not think I'm suffering at all. Having one heck of a time here on earth. Or do I need to have "god" in my life as a precondition to avoid suffering ( which I am not )?
I can understand the analogy of the teenager, but you have completely lost me with this.
"You have much blocking your ability to hear. It will take effort to overcome that. Spiritualist describe the voice of God as that still small voice within. Do you always listen to it, or do you occasionally listen to the ego telling something else? "
Do you realize you are dishing out the same rhetoric many have accused "non believers" of dishing? Stating that "you" can't hear what is being said. This is offensive, but I'll let it go (in the spirit of Jesus' teachings).
Here is what I still do not understand.....
If god created this place and all that is in it and yet humans create things that are independent of god how can god be in control of everything? How can he/she be in control of anything?
Is "god" selective on what he/she controls?
If the ego/carnal mind is a creation of man ( and "god" had no place in it) then our very existence, or our awareness of the self, is a creation of man and "god" has no place in our existence.
If religion is a creation of man, then buy default, so is "god".
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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I never said Ed was a rat! And I never said I wasn't a rat, either.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 11, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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Hey Doug,
I'm sorry if that statement about hearing sounded offensive but perhaps try to see if you judged it with your ego/carnal mind. Who me? Not be able to hear? No way man. I'm listening all the time.
Perhaps you are, but through what filter that you created? Think teenage mind.
Hey Son, you need to get some sleep tonight if you are going to be awake for school tomorrow.
Whatever..
He heard the words but did he get the message. That is what I mean by truly hearing. Have you gotten the message or has your ego distorted it? You sensed it from your true self when you interpreted it through the teachings of Jesus, yet part of you was offended. As though I was saying you couldn't hear. That part that was offended was your ego/carnal mind. It is something you created. Your true self is still there and can not be offended for it understands that nothing I say or even do can harm your true self, which is spirit. I may harm your body, but you are not your body. You are spirit.
............
Is God in control all the time? hoo man. That is a deep question. Ultimately yes. Temporarily...no. Another Koan.
God is in control in the sense that God has given us the power to make our own decisions, but God will not make those decisions for us. If God made the decisions for us, that would mean we were robots.
We are offspring of God. We have the power to choose and the power to create. We just don't have it to the full extent that God does, at least not until we prove that we wont destroy everything around us, then we can gain more power. Much like giving a child more responsibility as they mature.
....
Who besides Jesus and Buddha has gained full enlightenment? I don't know. There are lots and lots. Some are meant to be world teachers, these are the Buddhas of the world. Others live quiet lives directly being known by only a few. Paramahansa Yogananda was one world teacher. He achieved his full enlightenment after his death. That is possible. But he was very close while here on earth. "Autobiography of a Yogi" is a worthwhile read.
I believe my teachers are fully enlightened. Kim and Lorraine Michaels. Does this mean they don't have to deal with day to day life? No.. they still deal, yet they have an amazing grace and everyday their life becomes easier as they learn to fully master this realm.
According to them there are over 10,000 souls on this planet currently who have to the capacity to fully put on the Christ mind in this lifetime. Will all of these souls manage this in this lifetime? No one knows as it is up to each individual person. Yet these people have mastered enough of life to achieve this in this lifetime.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 11, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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What kind of deity designed this board game? If you love the players of the game why stack the rules against them in so many versions of the game?
Many versions of the game have strict rule books, use loaded dice, and if a roll of the dice eliminates a player the others players use a card they made up that says it is because the designer passed judgement on her.
The "game pieces" come with foibles and infirmities that incline them to turn right when they should turn left, and when players break the rules they are rewarded and seem to be winning, but when they read the cards they keep receiving stern warnings for what will happen in the final dark tunnel.
All the pieces eventually reach the tunnel at the end, and it is a mystery who won and who lost, but the rules say that the game designer knows. Proponents of the different versions of this game insist that their version is the only one that is real; some are willing to kill over this.
They believe that the designer has magically made it so that inside the tunnel the "game pieces" of players who had no dirty thoughts, knew the designer's son, and held their mouths just right will rise invisibly to the next level, but the game pieces of those players that looked at another player's breasts, or kicked another player under the table will fall through an invisible opening in the table into an invisible lake of fire.
Some players have decided to use the rules that they like, and they don't read any cards that are not inspirational.
They still use the dice, but if a "game piece" is eliminated, the other players use a card they made up that says that the eliminated player is needed in game-heaven with the designer, but if the "game piece" has a close scrape and continues to play, then they have another card that says the player still has important designer-business in the game.
The players just go around and around, and there is no devil to scare the kids, so it is appropriate for younger children.
They all enter the tunnel at the end, but no one really loses or wins. Proponents of this game stress that it's all about "how you play the game", but they also insist that this game is the one that is real.
It is comforting to play the games; to have rules, to know that there is a plan and someone who cared enough about you to make the plan. The dice would seem so arbitrary and cold without the explanations the cards provide. How can anyone not play the game?
But some people don't play the board games. Unimaginable for some, to just walk away from the board and rule book, and go outside, and just see, hear, feel, smell, taste, think, read, imagine, reason, with nothing but your experiences and the experiences of others to guide you.
By the way, the Hindu board game has a 643,892 page rule book, but you get to keep coming back so it's not a problem.
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 11, 2008 - 04:24pm PT
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Dear Ed,
You sure know a lot about evolution and biology for a particle physicist! Thanks for taking the time explaining it all in an objective and easy-to-understand way.
Logical reasoning that leads to science and intuitive thinking that leads to enlightnement are both valid and make life whole. Science and religion can co-exist nicely. I'm sorry for those who don't have room for both in their thinking, or can't at least have some appreciation for the one they feel less comfortable with.
Tomo
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jul 11, 2008 - 04:34pm PT
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Well, folks, I'm a wussie and I've never rap-bolted.
Does this mean I'm further evovled?
:-)
PS Thanks for the laughs, Ouch!
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andanother
climber
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Jul 11, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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Jody wrote:
“Why don't you just stick to posting as the real "you" instead of all these monikers you keep using?”
...and then...
Oh, I see, now you are posting as Wanda...
So I’m assuming that means he thinks Wanda and I are the same person. Just like how he thought he knew who was behind “Rick James, Bitch” until it was revealed that there were 5 or 6 people using it. Is that why you have been calling me “andanotherlong”? I never really understood that one, and have been meaning to ask.
And judging by Jennies earlier comments, it sounds as if he has convinced her of this as well. Poor little thing. She adores you Jody! And you’re feeding her lies!
Anyway, Wanda, if I’m going to be held responsible for your posts, could you be sure not to post anything that might upset Jody? I know he holds my opinions in the highest regard, and I don’t want you screwing that up for me!
I return, I will do the same for you.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 11, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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Why andy, I don't think I've ever written anything that could upset Jody.
The way I read his post andy, is that Jody, who normally respects Wanda's wit and wisdom, believed that one of Wanda's posts was beneath her, and he was trying to give her a gentle admonishment to improve her writing by joking that andy had written Wanda's post.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 11, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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That resurrection schtick you can thank the Egyptians for. There is so very little that is really original to Christianity, basically just the pseudo-history of the main characters, that's all. The rest is just reworked versions of older myths, cut and pasted to look like it was all something new. But whatever gets you through your life, it's alright, it's alright.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 12, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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Jody,
I really liked the debate I was engaged in with John.
Seemed to be relatively mellow, ( like jello would want).
And informative.
But there is no debate with you what so ever... never has been, never will be.
Peace out.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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Jul 12, 2008 - 02:10am PT
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Christianity/Judaism is a ripoff of Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism had it all well before the bible--virgin birth, massive flood, resurrection of the dead, destruction of the Earth in a final battle with evil, blah, blah, blah.
Sad to think that Christians couldn't even get an original set of myths to follow.
Edit: Sorry Jody, (post below) wrong again. Good retort though--shows you know what you're talking about. That seems to be your MO. Information-less responses to valid points made against your arguments. Very weak.
Zorastrian theology has had a great impact on Judaism, Christianity and other later religions, in the beliefs surrounding God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, savior, resurrection, final judgment, etc.
It is one of the oldest religions still in existence (possibly beginning as far back as 6000 BCE, some estimates based on the writing style put it at 1500BCE).
It may have been the first monotheistic religion--easily predating Judaism.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 12, 2008 - 05:44am PT
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How the humans have remained so intellectually primitive, by natural selection...
All human-caused contradictions are efficiently resolvable, by design of the human brain and the origin of the contradictions, much to the anger of those who insist upon the existence of romantic (emotion-based) mysteries as their excuse to remain ignorant because thinking is toilsome.
Among the knowledge one must learn to therefore learn more advanced knowledge only accessed by prerequisite knowledge, is how to use words that simply hold their dictionary meanings.
One trains their mind by the words they use. If you use words that do not relate to their primary common meanings, you will successfully TRAIN your brain, a trainable device, to routinely route data to unrelated neuron groups that cannot access useful data regarding what you want to learn as described by your inaccurate words.
Classic example: The heart pumps blood. The brain synthesizes knowledge, including emotion-altered knowledge. If your brain needs to learn more about the easily learned absolute proof of the existence of God, and you have trained your brain to perceive that the knowledge is in your heart, you will not be able to identify the proof of the existence of God because it is in your brain, where all your knowledge is.
This also explains why Park Pigs and their ilk are so intellectually primitive. They genuinely believe their knowledge is in their supervisor's brain, who was promoted to his job because he displayed his belief that his knowledge was in his supervisor's brain, extending all the way back through the club-carrying Neanderthals, some Chimpanzees, to some fish that walked out of the Ocean because God was laughing so hysterically about the game she invented that she did not notice the fish.
Intellectual evolution. Everybody knows that. It's the laws of nature.
Doug
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 13, 2008 - 09:58pm PT
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drgonzo, don't "follow" myths...believe in the truth and validity of Jesus teaching....they work....at least for me...big time. smiles, Lynne
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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Yes, this is how you get humans from apes (macro evolution) and a comparative analyses of both genomes and mitochondrial DNA confirms it:
[url="http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html" target="new"]Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab[/url]
[url="http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Lenski_affair" target="new"]Conservapedia Lenski affair[/url]
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MauMau2
climber
Freedonia
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Jul 14, 2008 - 02:40am PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 14, 2008 - 03:30am PT
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"The problem is that the bacteria can't pull the molecule [citrate] in through their membranes. In fact, their failure has long been one of the defining hallmarks of E. coli as a species"
Yeah, if you consider something like, say you suddenly being able to eat wood, being "slightly different" then sure, I guess it's no big deal. That an organism is able to mutate to derive energy from a chemical source it heretofore was unable to use or even pass through cell membranes is in fact a case of it doing something dramatically different - i.e. it's very different.
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