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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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Sep 28, 2007 - 01:58pm PT
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Hey Tar,
I've only been hitting this thread every couple of days, so please forgive me if I'm missing some context, but: When you write about the people on the cruise ship, the people in your friend's snow class, and Travolta, aren't you denying them the high road that you're suggesting we show sport climbers ("...crank up an appreciation for the broader context of the controversy at large and to then form an appraisal of the inherent dynamic of the conflict at hand")?
I mean, if you're gonna be empathetic, you might as well be globally empathetic, don't you think?
Ian
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Flying Kiwi:
Thanks for drawing that focus to my remarks; I can see where my words are colored more with scorn than with empathy.
I'm not necessarily indicting sport climbing, or saying that traditional climbing is comparatively the higher road, but I am drawing distinctions and painting a viewpoint of a cultural narrative which I find strongly informs people's approach. As I said in another thread, labels limit people, while distinctions highlight uniqueness and beget understanding. At some point you still have to call a spade a spade.
I'm saying that the cultural narrative at large often encourages people to engage in something akin to the Emperor's New Clothes.
Cheers,
Roy
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
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“Crank up an appreciation for the broader context of the controversy at large and to then form an appraisal of the inherent dynamic of the conflict at hand”…
That's a tall order and a complex job, but I am trying to take a crack at it and the outset, even that is more expository on my part and not so collusive, but you gotta start somewhere.
"Broader context of the controversy at large":
By this I mean a lot of things, while the “Emperor's New Clothes” syndrome and other grand narratives which inform the general public's apprehension of the pursuit of excellence and subsequent follow through, is just part of it, or a particular example. It is responsible in part for "rating creep" in climbing. In a granular sense, I would be talking about the climber's narrative, which includes the etymology of the term “trad” and all the history associated with it; this definitely including the rise, development, and utility of sport climbing, which has made great contributions and has its established place in the scheme of things.
"Appraisal of the inherent dynamic of the conflict at hand":
This is where the New Yorker cartoon up thread came in. I was suggesting that there is always a changing of the guard, a passing of knowledge from one generation to the next and with that comes posturing, struggle to preserve on one hand and a struggle to create anew on another. Just as an adolescent struggles for autonomy, so does the new generation do so and that is right for them, while the old guys don't always know just what is the best way to achieve that outcome and may not even know where it's going. They laid the foundation and have to let go. Heck, they don't even have hair anymore! The young guys do, they are wearing it and they are going to take a little bit of this, add a little bit of that, ultimately working it out on their own.
Flying Kiwi said:
“I mean, if you're gonna be empathetic, you might as well be globally empathetic, don't you think?”
Again to appreciate the broader context (and how that filters into the inherent dynamic of the conflict at hand), this is an excellent point which Ian made. While taking care not to succumb to a limp, flat land, undiscerning landscape of political correctness, it is generally better to include than to exclude. People want, they need validation and a sense of belonging: it's essential they know that it matters who they are. This often comes to the foreground when a struggle of styles goes to the mat. Likewise for the passing of the baton to the younger generations; after all, while the old guard prefers to be appreciated for their contribution to the ever expanding structure, do they really want the next generation to do just as they did? I don't think so and you just can't impose conformity and demand respect. We sort of just have to put it out there and wait and see.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Bob wrote:
“Most people want a extreme adventure...they just don't want the risk that come with it. There will alway be the small percentage of the population who embrace the risk and do some really amazing things.
The other side is when the extreme ones expect the general population to follow in the same manner...not everyone thinks a climbing route is worth a life.”
Hootervilian wrote:
“call it serendipity if you like, but just remember, some folks see that putting themselves in that position continually to achieve personal satisfaction and the accolades of a diminished few end up on the short end of the probability stick.
is it worth it? a personal choice i s'pose. but demanding that others adhere is the short bus to explicit regulation. probably better in terms of the road, it's deadly out there.
if soloing past bolts is so painful, then there are some pretty big masochists around these parts. either that or they 'solo' in popular areas for other reasons entirely.”
See those are both fairly sober and objective reflections upon the context of our climbing community and they are respectful of the right for each of us to express joy and striving in the way most appropriate to our individuality. Here we see homage to a continuum, and this is good.
As well, a little self-examination can leaven our contribution to this thought stream. As for me, you have to figure a guy, who for 27 years, goes to the trouble of leading climbs beset with the impediment of a cowboy hat, has to have a little bit of vanity, maybe some bravado, dashed into the mix. I'm an indulgent romantic, and I don't expect everyone to be that way, we don't all have to die with our boots on.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 28, 2007 - 07:21pm PT
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As well, a little self-examination can leaven our contribution to this thought stream. As for me, you have to figure a guy, who for 27 years, goes to the trouble of leading climbs beset with the impediment of a cowboy hat, has to have a little bit of vanity, maybe some bravado, dashed into the mix. I'm an indulgent romantic, and I don't expect everyone to be that way, we don't all have to die with our boots on.
Well if y'all mosey out this way again, we got some almost-hands-free museum climbs you ain't done.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 28, 2007 - 07:51pm PT
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sep 28, 2007 - 08:19pm PT
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Ksolem,
Around here there are X rated routes (routes with ground fall potential of 25 feet or more) that have a few 1/4" dia x 1 1/4" lg button heads. when there is a long X rated runout with no button heads I assume the guy couldn't stop to put one in.
Which brings to mind, if the old, bold guys coudn't put in a 1/4" button head where did they get the rule that new routes must be done ground up while on lead? Modern bolts are expected to be 3/8" dia and 2 1/2" or more in length.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 28, 2007 - 09:24pm PT
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I must admit that I've only read maybe 20% of the posts in this thread, and maybe somebody else has already said what I am about to say. Having said that, I think that climbing would really suffer if the only goal was related to how hard a climb was rather than the combination of how hard and bold. The climbs that I have aspired to do, and occasionally HAVE done are, invariably, ones with a reputation for being scary AND (relatively) hard. I enjoy sport climbing, but it's generally something that I think of as practice for REAL climbs - ones that take a good lead head. ANYBODY can be a 5.11-5.12 climber with enough dedication (= time spent in the gym and at the crags). Not everybody can lead scary 5.11. Someone like me, who can only get out 3-4 times a month (over the past 30 years), will never be able to compete on a purely technical level as someone who climbs 10-15 times a month or more. But I like the fact that I can have goals that rely on my overall abilities, including lead head, and can pull off some climbs that climbers who are technically better can't do.
Keep those bold climbs as bold and don't "dumb them down" for the masses.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2007 - 10:02pm PT
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Well that's what all those small town business said about Wall Mart.
Still Wall Mart came and dumbed down rural America.
You won't be able to stop the decline.
It's predestined ........
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 29, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
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The ocean waves surge freely against the shore, wetting the pebbles and shells.
-Ken Wilber, “No Boundary”
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King."
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 12:49pm PT
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Quien teme la muerte no goza la vida. (roughly means : Cowards die many times.)
Si, quitate de en medio. (roughly means : If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.)
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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So John? Do you know the "Real" meaning of that line?
"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King"
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 01:06pm PT
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"Technology is imposed on the land, but technique means conforming to the landscape. They work in opposite directions, one forcing passage while the other discovers it. The goal of developing technique is to conform to the most improbable landscape by means of the greatest degree of skill and boldness supported by the least equipment."
Doug Robinson
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sep 29, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
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This fact remains...if you are reaching to clip the first piton on the Needles Eye and fall, you will splat onto a blacktop parking lot 70 to 80 feet below in front of a bunch of tourons. Within hours lots of Needles climbing will be closed to everyone.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 29, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
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Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 29, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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What does it all mean???
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 29, 2007 - 01:46pm PT
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 02:19pm PT
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Theres a lot of stuff here so I just scanned a bunch but I saw some one post about getting safer routes for the next generation so they don't have to risk their lives.
WTF??? All climbing is risking your life. Collect stamps if you want to be safe. Climbing takes us to an uncomfortable intersection between life and the real possibility of death...the outcome is a heightened sense of awareness.
Some climb for the movement only, fine. Climb G rated routes.
Some of us climb for the movement, but also the feeling we get when we are run out and commited. Don't alter the character of those climbs. We can all find something to climb. But please, if you think bolts take away all the danger and you aren't risking your life...you are confused.
-JR
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Sep 29, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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in the land of corn on the cob, the one toothed man is king
Socrates
'course later he said...
Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.
...probably after he lost that last tooth.
gobblin' little ingrates.
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