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gathan
climber
Ontario, Canada
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My buddy and I were woken up on Dolt on Jul 3rd last year by a NIAD party of two. I don't remember the climber's names, although it looks like, looking at picks of Jason and Tim, that they ressemble what I vaguely remember seeing. They were on a sub 7hr climb I remember them saying. We chatted for a few minutes and they were on their way again. I remember being fascinated by how efficiently these guys were climbing.
Condolences to the families and friends. Very sad story all around.
Andre
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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as to the exisistance of a dropped haul bag?
Was it possibly the shadow of the falling lead climber?
A bag that belonged to the team??
Were there the remains of a dropped haul bag recovered?
I did see a post for -found gear- retrieved along the base over on the Mnt Reject. . . . ????
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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While it’s possible an unaccounted for bag fell from outer space, I think it’s more likely the witness saw Tim’s own pack falling. This pack was likely pretty heavy, more than usual.
I find it more likely that something went wrong while climbing with this pack in the 5.7ish terrain in approach shoes than Jason slipping off the 5.4ish terrain above.
I can envision numerous scenarios how that last few seconds may have played out, but I don’t believe we’ll ever know for sure. Tim may have fallen back to the ledge where the anchor was and lost the pack, pulling Jason off, he may have also made an attempt to transition the pack off his back and onto a piece of gear or a loop in the rope and fumbled. We’ll never know.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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that kind of stuff happens randomly and fast. not everyone processes the information the same. you see something falling and your mind tries to discern what it is, haul bags much easier to accept than bodys, who knows..... heard a thud once and my partner is OMG was that rockfall. I knew exactly what it was by the sound. No, that was a body. we booked to the scene to help with the rescue.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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that kind of stuff happens randomly and fast. not everyone processes the information the same. you see something falling and your mind tries to discern what it is, haul bags much easier to accept than bodys, who knows.....
A few ago I was driving Southbound on 6th St in SF, and I saw a mannequin in a Superman suit flying through the air, presumably thrown from up high a block ahead. I could have (and would have) sworn it landed far into the 2nd lane of the 4-lane street. I remember laughing because it was so ridiculous. As I got near, there was a commotion on the sidewalk, and I could see an older man laying on the sidewalk appearing to be quite dead. There was a window that had been blown out 4 stories up. So in that split second of witnessing the flying object, not only did I get the colors he was wearing completely wrong, but he landed nowhere near where I thought he had (at least 30 feet closer to the building - going straight down and not "flying" above the lanes of traffic).
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Thanks for sharing that beautiful memory Kwagner. Very nicely articulated thoughts on the accident, our own mortality, and on the ones we leave behind.
K
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Any evaluation of these issues in technical terms would be well served by including Rich Goldstone and Ed H.
I'm not sure there is enough information, or if there will ever be enough information to have an evaluation "in technical terms." The NPS is investigating the deaths, and the team, which includes Jesse and Brandon, is knowledgable and competent, so we will learn as much as possible.
But that will likely still leave many unanswered and unanswerable questions.
Eye witness is notoriously complicated by the witness' perception of what happened, and one of the roles of the investigators is to piece together what likely happened from all the personal, highly subjective reports.
From my experience, simulclimbing for me almost always commences with the half-joking comment to my partner, "don't fall," and proceeds by putting pro in where the climbing looks tough or dangerous and running out the other bits. Learning to simulclimb was liberating, but one wonders why roping together is any better than soloing those parts of a climb. Soloing would at least heighten your awareness of the peril, while having a rope on conveys the illusion of security.
Someone asked me at work yesterday about risks and "close calls." My reply was that the close calls I knew about didn't bother me, the thought of the close calls I don't know about worries me more.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Learning to simulclimb was liberating, but one wonders why roping together is any better than soloing those parts of a climb. Soloing would at least heighten your awareness of the peril, while having a rope on conveys the illusion of security.
This corresponds to something I said earlier about my difficulties maintaining what has to be a soloing attitude when you are tied to a rope and there is at least some protection below. (I wouldn't presume to suggest these are anyone else's difficulties, but wouldn't be surprised if I'm not unique in this regard either.)
There is, however, an absolutely major difference between soloing and simulclimbing, and that is the ability, in very short order, to provide an honest-to-goodness belay for either leader or second if the difficulty requires it. I think most parties simulclimb with their belay devices installed and engaged, not simply to manage slack but also to be able to transition to belaying as quickly as the belayer can get stable.
So I think of simulclimbing as soloing, but with the possibility of getting a real belay if one doesn't like the moves. This suggests that simulclimbing is most properly suited to terrain where one might periodically or occasionally want a belay, and if the climbing is known to be consistently easier than that, having the party go unroped might well be a better idea.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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traveling north on I91 years ago I saw a body in the breakdown lane of the southbound hwy. Pulled into the breakdown lane on my side and zoomed in with my work camera. The body was a trashbag and a seat cushion...
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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My reply was that the close calls I knew about didn't bother me, the thought of the close calls I don't know about worries me more.
Amen Ed, any climber/mountaineer who thinks for a minute they’re here now based solely on their experience and judgement is fooling themselves. A card is drawn everyday, it’s a gift that some of us get to keep playing.
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crøtch
climber
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My view of simulclimbing matches rgold's to a T.
So I think of simulclimbing as soloing, but with the possibility of getting a real belay if one doesn't like the moves. This suggests that simulclimbing is most properly suited to terrain where one might periodically or occasionally want a belay
The long 4th class ridge with occasional 5.X obstacles comes to mind.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Any evaluation of these issues in technical terms would be well served by including Rich Goldstone and Ed H.
--
A lot can be discerned from carefully drawn notes from on-scene. Though this is compromised because the rope was cut and whatever pro was between leader and second is lying at the base somewhere. You can reverse-engineer things to a certain degree, but only if the you have exact descriptions of harness, tie ins, etc.
Eye-witnesses are notoriously off base because our brains project probabilities based on our conditioning. Two people at the same place can "see" different events, and commonly do. However there are certain aspects that are likely reliable from the climbers who were on top of the Half Dollar, who can break things down in general terms - re, who was leading, who fell, and from where, etc. The greater the detail, the more perspective bias comes into play. That's why police have small cameras mounted in the squad cars.
Once all the info is in, a likely picture will start to fill out, though the "reasons" for the fall will always be sketchy. In talking to people who DID fall, for the purposes of writing up reports or when I have been called on as an "expert witness," few know exactly why they fell, or even efficient causes and likely contributing factors beyond, "It was loose," or wet, or many other things.
It should be noted that while Tommy C. and Alex H. are likely the best trad climbers we have, during the run up to their new record, Tommy took a 100-footer off the Stovelegs, which is hiking for him. Anyone can go any time when the pedal is floored.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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Anyone can go any time when the pedal is floored. In a nutshell...
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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God bless you John. We barely know each other but in a way you are a father to me. Keep safe and thank-you for shining the brightest light in our little world. Your books have kept me alive in times that my own judgement faltered. I thank God for your mentorship and insight.
Rob Trelford
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Top Out Climbing Gym
Gym climber
Santa Clarita, CA
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Hi All,
My name is Howard Konishi and I am the owner/manager of Top Out Climbing Gym. Tim Klein - one of the climbers that died on El Cap was a member of Top Out since we opened 5 years ago.
I wanted to share the Gofundme link that was started by a close family friend for anybody that wishes to donate funds. I have spoken to the creator of the Gofundme campaign and can confirm that it is a legitimate family friend. This Gofundme campaign was also approved by JJ Klein - the wife of Tim. The donated funds will currently go directly to JJ, and plans are being made for long term benefit of Tim's kids. More details can be found on the link.
If anybody wishes to donate funds to the family directly instead of using Gofundme, please e-mail me at howard@topoutclimbing.com for more information.
Thank you in advance and please, climb safely.
https://www.gofundme.com/hzrktb-klein-family
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Andy Glatfelter
Social climber
Palmdale
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I'm not a climber but a friend of Tim Klein. His wife JJ posted a link to a GoFundMe page in support of Jason Wells' wife Becky, who is pregnant with their first child, a girl, and is due in November. Please pray for them and consider supporting. https://www.gofundme.com/jason-wells-memorial-fund
Thanks to Howard at Top Out Climbing Gym for posting the link to support Tim's family as well. They truly appreciate the climbing community being there for them.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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There are other ways to simul-climb on technical rock. Simul-climbing can be well protected and provide no farther runnouts than normal, though the follower always have to be mindful of not pulling the leader off.
However, the techniques can be great for turning a 10-pitch route into a 5, still placing pro as if you were pitching the whole thing out. You need a larger rack, but the time savings of -5 belays is very significant.
Agreed. With that system, the party covers two pitches by simuling for one pitch, as the leader gets a normal belay on P1 and the second gets a normal belay on P2. If the protection is really going to be located for "normal" runouts, the party will need a pretty big rack.
Are the mental attitudes all that different on the simuling parts (leader is climbing P2 at same time that second is climbing P1)? The second's actions are still as critical as ever, for example.
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