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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
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I wonder if they get lower back pain?
Only for a couple of days per month.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
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She got the crazy part down You're referring to Kim Basinger as Kitty Potter, correct?
She's a total bust up throughout. Might be her most outstanding performance anywhere.
I'd like to see her reaction to getting spanked by a man! Kevin, Kevin. Have you learned nothing here in these pages? Ha ha.
I'd like to see your reaction to getting spanked by a woman ... Well maybe not ... Okay ...
You need to go through some serious reeducation, my man!
I'm sure we can get you the help you need...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
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Warbler said:
She also told me that women would be as adventurous as men, but they aren't taught that it's normal, so that's why they don't adventure as much in climbing.
That's why we need more women, particularly millennials, on a thread like this, to really draw a bead on what's happening out there. And women like Cat, who are avowed feminists, and self-secure enough to hang on a forum overwrought by opinionated males, of whatever stripe. (Not to overlook L, Susan, Kath, Tammy, and others).
You'll recall, way up thread, over a bunch of speed bumps, I mentioned Helga's daughter, Claire, would be visiting. Now, Helga describes herself as fiercely independent. Claire will be in Yosemite for the next month, living out of her truck, and will spend the rest of the year climbing before she returns here to Boulder for school. So I don't know about fierce, but she's definitely well on her way to being an independent woman.
So, over pizza with Lisa, Claire, and her companion Avery, as part of my informal survey related to this thread, I asked Claire and Avery what they thought about feminism and the PC aspect of it becoming overwrought. And broached the general issue of gender relations in sport. As well as I could reflect what we've talked about here on the forum, they agree with you, me, Lisa, apparently Dana B, and a handful of others. Namely, that it has become overwrought in our culture. Not that feminism doesn't have a place; it's just that they think people should chill out a bit.
Now, if you happen to be a young woman who grew up in Texas, as Cat did, one could see how contextually you might have a very different feeling about these things. And it would be warranted!
You and I are Californians. Same with Helga and Claire and Avery. Lisa however, is from Cincinnati. But I have to say, one reason I married her, other than for her sense of humor, is that she ranks as the most self-assured, self-directed, and enlightened woman I could find over 20 years of searching. I like to say she burns clean, which is to say she harbors no hangups that I can identify, gets over things quickly, is super well-adjusted, and is very progressive overall in her politics. In a word, self-actualized.
And to get in a little deeper: to look at him, it's pretty clear that Avery presents overwhelmingly, in the physical sense, like a young woman. Claire says he gets that a lot. Pure conjecture, and maybe not fair to do so here in public, but I will say Lisa thinks he may well be a young woman who identifies as a male. If that's so, and he's in line with those of us who thinks these things are overwrought, then that says something to me about young people these days.
Now I don't really care what his biological realities are. Avery is the most well read, athletically motivated, artistically inclined and brilliant young person I've met in many years. If those two 18-year-olds are any indication of the potential in millennials, I think the future is bringing good things.
 And of course Kevin, you know I'm completely joking about the reeducation. But just to be sure others don't fail pick up on that fact ...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
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Oh, shoot, see how I am?
I guess Cat, whom I presume to be in her mid-late 20s, is a millennial?
It's about when they come of age, not when they are born.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
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I haven't been paying as much attention to this thread, but--
Yeah, any way you slice it I'm in the middle of the millenials (I'm 27). It may seem bizarre to y'all, but I come off like a curmudgeonly old man in comparison to the "gen Z" Stanford kiddos I see running around here (the students I directly teach don't seem so bad...). I don't know if it's their youth or their Californian-ness, but from the perspective of a woman who grew up just before social media and smartphones exploded, these kids seem bizarrely unprepared for a world in which all activities are not pre-prescribed. SF Bay is a weird pressure-cooker, to be sure, and maybe every generation is doomed to disapprove of the one that follows, but the overwrought feminism that you describe, Roy, seems like a generational tendency toward the overwrought, not a trend that has its source within feminism itself.
And also, let's remember the west coast bubble. There are 17 year old Californian "feminists" who might go on a rampage about the man in "humanity," and as sensible people we should not let the cacophonous voices of Fake Tumblr Activists sully the name of feminism while real causes remain for youth a couple states over, and for female tech workers in our own damn state. There are also 50-something Californian men who will rally against feminism because the young women in their local town now have MORE educational opportunities than a young man, and in liberal-land they're probably not wrong. But there are huge swathes of the country where that is not true at all and pooh-poohing feminism as outdated and overwrought is unfair to those neighbors.
Related to the lack of independence in Gen Z, I thought this article was pretty good, not just hand wringing "oh the kids these days," but actually thoughtful:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/?utm_source=eb
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
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Cat said:
but the overwrought feminism that you describe, Roy, seems like a generational tendency toward the overwrought, not a trend that has its source within feminism itself. Thanks for that, Cat. That's good, suggesting it's a generational tendency. Definitely, we don't want to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, in terms of the productive nature of feminism, but to identify the sources of prevalent trends. That's why I made reference to ecofeminism several pages back, because I think it embodied some real needs and did a damn lot of good.
But there are huge swathes of the country where that is not true at all and pooh-poohing feminism as outdated and overwrought is unfair to those neighbors. Please remember, you'll never find me disparaging feminism with a wide brush, from a couple pages back, I said:
But yes, I thought the article about Germany was relevant, in that it points out that the pendulum needs some pushing over there. The question is, who's going to do it if not feminists?
I'm not real easy to read in isolated posts. My positions, if it can be said that I have any, are developed over long spans.
When the women's marches happened this year (or the end of last year), I was very, very grateful, for I felt they might be saving the world, both in the short and long term. One of Lisa's friends went to New York, and if I were mobile, I would've gone as well.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
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So, over pizza with Lisa, Claire, and her companion Avery, as part of my informal survey related to this thread, I asked Claire and Avery what they thought about feminism and the PC aspect of it becoming overwrought. And broached the general issue of gender relations in sport. As well as I could reflect what we've talked about here on the forum, they agree with you, me, Lisa, apparently Dana B, and a handful of others. Namely, that it has become overwrought in our culture. Not that feminism doesn't have a place; it's just that they think people should chill out a bit.
This attitude is a bit frustrating. Analogies, because they're easy: a non-white person who grew up in a wealthy, multiracial community, with many non-white role models, might reach adulthood without ever experiencing overt racism. Can such a person claim that racism is not a problem in America, because in their sub-community it wasn't a problem? By loudly proclaiming that their experience is the representative one, such a person might actually detract from the credibility of the (many, many) Americans who still experience systematic racism on a daily basis.
I am glad that there are women for whom feminism feels irrelevant. That is wonderful. If it means that they grew up without the barrage of creepy comments from male teachers and customers and strangers, and without the dearth of female role models, and without being laughed at for being the only woman in a math class, etc, then I'm happy for them. I hope that any hypothetical offspring I have grow up in a town so progressive that I will never feel compelled to even mention the word feminism. But I wouldn't take it to mean those women are inherently chill, or somehow stronger or more independent. I'd take it to mean they had excellent role models, and they're lucky, and I hope that more women can have lives like that.
Edit:
Considering that you said,
But yes, I thought the article about Germany was relevant, in that it points out that the pendulum needs some pushing over there. The question is, who's going to do it if not feminists? you probably actually agree with me. My apologies for sounding so harsh; since you respond reasonably I may be spewing thoughts better directed toward other posters in your direction...!
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Sep 19, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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A while ago I subscribed to Bitch magazine; it's interesting and it's fun to read.
But the impressions I often get after finishing the articles, and the authors and the staff of the magazine seem to agree, are:
Once you begin self-examining for gender bias, sexism, and racism the process never stops.
This process never should stop if you're sincere.
And every time you think you've become aware and sensitive, the pressure to be more so increases by orders of magnitude. You will never arrive.
A bit like living with a constant, immediate, and intense feeling of original sin.
Sorry for the free association. And after a whole day fussing over and fine tuning a freelance article, I'm not all that interested in clear, concise writing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
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Cat said:
you probably actually agree with me. My apologies for sounding so harsh; since you respond reasonably I may be spewing thoughts better directed toward other posters in your direction...!
I think we agree on quite a lot. What I'm trying to do with you is figure stuff out together. I don't really do debate or dialectic very well. I'm interested in expanding my understanding, not proving my points. Double check my post from 3:46 PM, where I added something about the women's marches. The whole post may read more clearly right now.
I use voice control software exclusively, and invariably my posts require some tweaking to fix things I don't see at the outset, even if I edit them carefully before posting. And sometimes I just get excited, and post too quickly!
You're an academic, and you can churn through stuff at lightning speed. Or so I imagine. I carefully digest everything everybody says here, and get really granular ... And even reread stuff.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
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DanaB wrote:
But the impressions I often get after finishing the articles, and the authors and the staff of the magazine seem to agree, are:
Once you begin self-examining for gender bias, sexism, and racism the process never stops.
This process never should stop if you're sincere.
And every time you think you've become aware and sensitive, the pressure to be more so increases by orders of magnitude. You will never arrive.
This is an interesting observation, and I agree that this arises as a sort of fundamental problem when engaging in social activism. Must we look back and condemn our own pasts, for we were insufficiently enlightened about some social problem in 2010, and 2011, and 2012, and...? Must we always be ashamed of our own good fortune, since it is not shared by all? What do we really accomplish with shame and blame, besides a spiral of negativity?
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Sep 19, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
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Must we always be ashamed of our own good fortune, since it is not shared by all? What do we really accomplish with shame and blame, besides a spiral of negativity?
Yes, I wanted to add that but ran out of steam, and some of the Bitch mag. writers make those points, i.e., no need for endless shame or excessive guilt about our imperfections.
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L
climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
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Sep 19, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 11:02pm PT
Nah000 is a good man. [I don't care to critique his opinions, I just read them.]
Nice to hear from you L! It's been too long. I hope you're well.
Hey Roy,
I'm lovin' your posts and photos! Voice recog software seems to be working for you.
Got a fixer-upper we're remodeling...and Monty county requires jumpin' thru more hoops than Barnham & Baileys lion act, so there ya go. Doing more jumpin' than climbin', but still getting the climbing in.
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:32am PT
Nice summary L.
I hope life is treating you well!
Susan
Hi Susan,
Good to see you back, too! I seem to recall you were on an Adventure...if I can use that trademarked word in relation to a woman, that is. ;-)
Anything worth posting a TR for?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 05:34pm PT
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Thanks for the report, L!
Keep jumping through those hoops, and at some point we hope to hear of your bad old self relaxing on the veranda after it's all done!
And you know, somewhere I got the idea you were at one point a model or worked in the fashion industry. So besides the on-topic interaction between Kitty and the designer, that post from Ready to Wear was for your amusement, as well as my own.
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L
climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
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Sep 19, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
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And you know, somewhere I got the idea you were at one point a model...
Hahahaha! I've worked so hard to put those days behind me, and now you bring them all back...with a vengeance. Thanks, Roy! :-)
I'm gonna go look at those vids now...see if I can find the feministas in them...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
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Here's the thing though, and I touched on it already -
Those lawmakers were elected by the people of that state, roughly half of them women, and to a great extent, especially with abortion and other women's issues, their policies and actions reflect the will of the electorate, so they are supported by lots and lots of women. In reality, in the Bible Belt, those laws reflect the will of the church through the electorate. Feminism dubiously claims to be unbiased towards men, but it goes without saying that it should not oppose the will of the majority of women. And the majority of women in states like Texas just might support the kind of legislation that you, as a Bay Area millennial feminist, think is terribly "patriarchal" and sexist.
So I get your frustration with the way things are there but I question if feminism targets the real force of the problem, or instead makes men the scapegoat because they are mostly the face of the machine.
Challenging the church, organized religion (Christianity), and its patriarchy is not something feminists are overtly willing to do, it seems to me, understandably, I think probably because so many women in America identify with Christianity. That leaves average nice guys like me, seemingly, as the target of their frustration.
Am I wrong? Or does feminism actively pester the Christian establishment directly as being the root cause of a lot of controversy over womens' heath issues?
Hey Kevin,
I certainly don't think that feminism dictates that the "wills of women" must be supported simply because they are women. Yes, half of those constituencies are women, and I think that they have internalized the sexism endemic to their home so deeply that they (the women) end up taking an active role in maintaining sexist policies and sexist cultural expectations. They are, to put it in the harshest words possible, viciously sexist. They (the women) contribute to the problem both by voting for inherently sexist policies, and perhaps more importantly, by instilling a set of "virtues" in their children that are, in my opinion, quite the opposite of virtuous.
Especially after the 2016 presidential election, I've given a bit of thought to how the hell such women can be so content to vote against their own interests. My best explanation basically borrows the tagline from the "active women" photo collection presented by DMT upthread: "You can’t be what you can’t see.” These women must truly believe that it is impossible for women to be seen as equals, either because they think that it would somehow demean men, or because they think that women are incapable of the same accomplishments as men.
In my analysis-from-afar, I suppose I'd guess that these ladies are afraid of surrendering the social advantages they do have. The "female powers" that you constantly allude to, which I think are neither admirable nor universal. If they give up their coquettish behavior and act with the brash independence considered too manly, will they lose their domestic power? I wish it could somehow be made clear to such women that 1) their worth does not depend on their value to a man, and 2) there is not some limited amount of "independence" to go around. If women become more strong and independent, men are not going to wither away into effeminate slugs. (And I suppose 3, there are plenty of smart, masculine dudes who absolutely do not want a simpering girl who imagines herself to possess "feminine wiles," but rather a strong life partner who is their equal.)
I feel guilty speaking so harshly of such women, because I do think they are trapped, in a way. I do not think I am better than them for not falling into the same trap. My mom's a chemical engineer; my dad's a process engineer. Anytime my friends' moms made comments about how I was too tomboyish or too smart or insufficiently cute (and you can bet they did), my parents made it damn clear to me that I should keep on being tomboyish and smart and that I was plenty cute with no makeup on. But how do you break free of that pattern when you have no one to show you how?
And...yeah, I actually do think that this idea that "being a strong woman demeans your man" has its roots in Christian ideas. I think the so-called virtues propagated by our country's favorite religions, if followed, serve to churn out timid women who are ashamed of their own sexuality and afraid to speak their minds. I suppose when I throw around the phrase "patriarchal society," it could easily be replaced with "society with prudishly Puritanical origins."
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
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Okay, I see all of the above, Cat. But in addition, I think what Kevin was asking is, can feminists make inroads to those puritanical/patriarchal cultures and seek change, by way of communicating with the women in those conservative cultures?
To me that all seems like culture wars stuff, and that Kevin and you and I and all feminists have much more in common than we do with those Texan women, and their propensity for voting against their own self-interest.
Did I posit that in a useful manner, Kevin?
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
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Okay, I see all of the above, Cat. But in addition, I think what Kevin was asking is, can feminists make inroads to those puritanical cultures and seek change, by way of communicating with the women in those conservative cultures?
I wish I knew the answer to this. It seems like we've grown only more polarized, and I'm not sure how to cross the cultural gap. I'm not really sure how to conjure up phrasing that doesn't immediately lump me into "condescending coastal elite" and render my words inaudible. But I certainly agree that liberal feminism does a pretty terrible job communicating with conservative women.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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If I was hearing Kevin correctly, and everything in my last post reflected that, let me try an example from another milieu:
I know a woman who did mediation and conflict resolution in the Balkans about 25 years ago. She told me that the strongest method of outreach was to work with the women, because as child bearers and family builders, they were the better people to reach out to as change agents, in that in many ways, it's men that are imbued with the tendency toward retaliation and war and that endless cycle of aggression.
It's the women who are more likely to seek change and to rebuild. If anybody remembers what Werner said a while back, when the men fail, the women start leading.
Another example that has always held strong within me comes from a novel by Jon Fowles called The Magus. In it, he describes war as essentially a total breakdown by men of an understanding of relationship; of relationship to self, to partner, to family, to environment, and to everything that matters.
So you go for the women when you want that kind of productive change!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
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Whaal, they had it comin'. Or did they?
Not your typical KKK rally. Note lack of hoods.
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