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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 24, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
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I'm also waiting for a VG9 that I paid Tom for on July 4th, this year.
The day before I sent payment Tom replied to my email saying he'd sold all of the latest batch, but had ordered new lobes to be cut by Theron, which he expected to be the only holdup. I've sent a couple inquires to Tom since then, at the 2nd email address listed on http://www.valleygiant.com/VGcontact.html , but haven't heard back. I know Tom is not making a huge profit from building these cams, but was hoping to be able to use it before the snow flies.
Does anyone have contact info for Theron Moses?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 24, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
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Thanks, Clint!
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Idahoan
Trad climber
Idaho
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Oct 29, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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JustinS
At least one batch has sold of which many of us have one. I have no idea what the current status of orders are, but you can contact him at merlinrockgear@gmail.com
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Nice surprise just now. VG9 from Tom arrived and looks great! It took a little while, but good things take time, especially with a handmade product like Valley Giants. I'm very impressed with the craftsmanship, and how bomber it appears! It should be good for many years. Thanks for making these available, Tom!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
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Clint said,
I recall reading somewhere that Theron had to sell some of his machinery?
So maybe Tom is having difficulties having the cam lobes made.
Theron's partner at the machine shop is moving everything to Reno. Theron is not moving. He split off, and has his own shop. He is still getting things moved in, and asked me if I can do some of the electrical wiring to speed things up. In the next few days, we will get Theron's electrical situation sorted out, and he will cut out a big sheet of lobes for me.
In the meantime, I have enough parts to put a half-dozen cams together, to go out on Monday. So, hopefully, nobody else (Ryan) will want a refund. That was the only time I have ever refunded money that was not immediately sent back to me.
If someone thinks that I am exaggerating about the need to comprehensively test a new, computer-designed structural system, like, say, a giant fly-weight climbing cam, they should to look at this:
Roof Spontaneously Collapses At Paris Airport, Killing Five People.html
This was not terrorism. The roof spontaneously collapsed just a few months after it had been completed. There was no hurricane, tornado, or other Act of God. The structural system was defective, essentially at the core of its basic design. The engineers relied on computer modeling, not testing, to ensure the building was safe. It was not safe. The computer lied.
It was built using innovative technology to accommodate the Parisian airport authority's requirement that the 2,100-foot-long, 110-foot-wide terminal not have any intermediate, interior supports that would restrict the flow of passengers to and from the gates.
To meet the requirements, the project's chief architect, Paul Andreu, proposed using technology developed for the construction of tunnels. It was ''a significant first, not without numerous difficulties, not least being the open-air construction of the concrete shells,'' noted a 2002 news release from the French Technology Press Bureau.
The concrete shell, built by the French construction firms Eiffel and Laubeuf, was constructed in rings ''with three interlocking elements, positioned one next to the other,'' the news release said. To simulate the pressure on an underground tunnel that keeps the concrete tube intact, the news release explained, steel hoops were attached to the outside and carbon fiber reinforcements were glued onto the shell.
Computer analysis of the concrete vault, ostensibly stabilized with external tensile reinforcement, indicated that it should have been structurally sound. But, the similitude between the computer model and the actual, real-world terminal building was not sufficient.
Eiffel and Laubeuf represent the pinnacle of French structural engineering competence. So, if they can't get a computer model to accurately predict structural integrity, how can someone else (with less experience and weaker computers) hope to do any better?
A 2-dimensional FEA analysis of a big cam lobe, which presumes in-plane structural failure, through cracking or breaking, is going to be 100% wrong. Even a 3-dimensional FEA analysis of a cam lobe would be of limited use, because the entire cam is a structural system, and will have behavior that is not easily modeled by simply analyzing a single, isolated cam lobe.
TEST TEST TEST
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 24, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle_Airport#Collapse_of_Terminal_2E
It looks like the failure was due to a number of causes (including only small margins for errors) in a situation with a considerable amount of complexity.
The analogy is somewhat imperfect because it would be expensive to test each new building design at full scale. Instead you try to keep things as simple as possible, and have a good grasp of the strength of each component.
How much testing is "enough"?
And which tests are important?
It is always possible to design a test where the cam cannot rotate and it will fail at a relatively low load. Is this a relevant test, or would users know to avoid this situation?
I am satisfied that some cams were tested to failure, and I like the idea that the initial run is out in the field with users testing them, presumably with some level of backup.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Nov 24, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
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Perhaps monsieur de gaulle would like a refund ?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 24, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
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You have to wonder how many climbers are actually taking big falls on these large cams since hanging or slithering back down OWs is usually a better alternative.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 24, 2017 - 10:24pm PT
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^^^^^^^
Good point.
But, some big cracks (e.g., P9 Excalibur) don't allow for slithering down. The cutting edge in OW climbing involves severe, overhanging routes. Pam told me she whipped on the horizontal Gabriel crack, and was happy to have Valley Giant boat anchors to keep her from decking. And they can be used for hauling, rescue and other high-load uses.
Pusher pieces are nice. Mixing them with VG cams on long pitches was great. My magnesium cams weighed less than a Camalot. I don't sell them anymore, though, because they are not very strong.
How can you ensure that someone doesn't leave a pusher-piece as pro, climb above, and then fall onto it? People know not to whip onto microsized stoppers with tiny cables. But, it's not as obvious that a big, lightweight cam might be just as weak.
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Jasper Young
Trad climber
Adelaide, South Australia
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:21am PT
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Okay Tom, I think everyone's got it about how bad the off axis loading risks are without solid heavy slabs of ally and how any factors of off width cam design that aren't the same as yours are super unsafe compromises.
You seemed reasonable for the first couple fairly informational posts but you're starting to come across less helpful and more unprofessional.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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Disagree Jasper. #8 Merlin cam and multiple Valley Giant cams owner here. I'd rather have this discussion before the first fatality than afterwards. Not saying the Merlin is bad, I'll use it all day long (if such can be said of OW climbing which I prefer avoiding:-).
As a cutting edge ultralight cam, I would expect limitations and wouldn't expect the Merlin to be as strong as Tom's cams. Knowing the limitations and having this discourse in advance is a good thing. Refer you to the Paris Airport photo above. The forces on these cams varys and they are not tested as much as building engineering models and look at that pic again. Sh#t happens. I loves my Merlin cam.
Carry on.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 11:09am PT
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^ Am in total agreement w/couchmaster!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Dec 19, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
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Refer you to the Paris Airport photo above.
You don’t even have leave climbing to see this. Look at all the people who ran out and bought X4’s as their first micro cams a few years back. Suddenly people were reporting failures and were shocked to find tiny cams had different failure modes than the hand sized cams they were used to using.
More info for the community is a good thing, then customers can decide what tool is best for them.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
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My undergraduate engineering thesis in 1988 dealt with a structural experiment comprising a lattice dome that was prestressed by a network of exterior tensile strands. This was the same concept that the Eiffel engineers came up with, 15 years later, for the concrete vault of the Paris airport terminal shown above.
My experiment was a failure, and showed that the concept of of externally preloading a compressive shell with tensile elements was a flawed concept.
So, you'll have to excuse me for being overly cautious, and eager to impress upon others the need for safety when it comes to novel structural designs that may adversely affect people's lives and health.
Theron is still getting his new shop set up. The best part is that it's only minutes from his house, now. I am going back there, today, to cut a slab off of my big sheet of aluminum, so that I can make some cam lobes myself, and keep the whole VG thing going.
Theron needs some big ventilation fan blowers for his shop, and I recently came across some used ones that he could use. So, at all ends we are trying to get the "unprofessional" gear out to people.
BTW, I have a half-dozen VG12 cams right now, although I generally advise people to not get one of those, unless they already have a VG9. They are big, heavy, expensive and only appropriate in rare circumstances. As a prop at a cocktail party, though, they're pretty good.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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I can attest to the V12 being a "prop"..haven't used it yet...but it does get the attention:
"Oh, that's a burly cam!"
"Why yes, yes it is.."
"Where have you placed it?"
"Uh (sheepishly) no where yet except on the book shelf"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
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r
Rack;1 12" VG, or three greenbros, or some combination. Your choice
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
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Push, push, push!
 Robert Plant, of Led Zeppelin fame
Jimmy Page, of Led Zeppelin fame, was a climber who venerated Aleister Crowley, another climber of note.
In the movie, The Song Remains The Same, Jimmy Page is shown climbing a rock face behind his Loch Ness castle, in an effort to reach a grizzled Hermit holding a lamp. Previously, that castle belonged to Aleister Crowley.
That imagery appeared as the fold-out, inside artwork of the LP version of Led Zeppelin IV.
Do What Thou Wilt was inscribed into the vinyl of Led Zeppelin III. That quote was directly from Crowley.
12" LP albums, and their delicious packaging, are a lost art. I am lucky to be so old that I was able to enjoy that, before it disappeared forever.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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Nice Jaybro.
Jesse didn't have a Valley Giant for this offwidth at Trout.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
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You don't need a Valley Giant.
Listen to what The Master had to say about wide offwidth cracks:
Our technique is our protection.
Chuck Pratt
But, now, the New Paradigm is this:
Our protection is our technique.
Mea Culpa.
When days were old, and men were bold,
And Masters ruled the Valley,
Technique was Pro,
They had no Pro,
And Zen kept them from falling.
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