Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
|
Hey, wienerdude, to quote you:
Hammerchine,
Yes I built you a beautiful and opulent home gym to go along with your lifestyle and new house. I "got weird" when you refused to pay an honest materials bill that you had been informed was still forthcoming when Keith and I left your jobsite. That and being dismissed summarily like a common servant for presenting said bill doesn't exactly leave me feeling chummy and desiring your company. As is so often the case in my experience as a general contractor, I absorbed the loss and moved on. Perhaps you should too.
For starters, it's "hummerchine". And if you want internet war, you've got it. I completely agree, you built me a beautiful and opulent home gym. The other details you have dead wrong. You quoted me $10k to build my gym over ten years ago, ended up costing me more than $20k, along with taking far longer than you predicted. You mention your experience as a general contractor, my experience with general contractors is more money and time than quoted. But I must apologize to contractors, you have riled me and I'm sure there are contractors that do as they say. When you presented me with the final bill, you were also apologetic about the fee being so much higher than quoted. You then said that there were some minor materials bills still due, but since you were so over the bid you would pay for them. If you recall, you had the flu at the time, perhaps that has muddled your memory. Or perhaps it was the massive amounts of marijuana you were smoking at the time, just about every time my wife and I visited the job site there were clouds of fragrant smoke. Not that I had any issue with that, if that is what inspires you to greatness that is fine by me. But that may have also slowed you down, along with altering your perception of what happened back then. I told you that even though I was displeased with the overage on the bid, I was also thrilled with the work you did, so I would pay you and be happy. Which I did and was. So like six months later I went to the new Vertical Club in Fremont with a friend and happened to run into you. I told you how much I loved my gym, along with the new one you had worked on in Fremont. We went out afterwards and bought you some beers. It was great to see you. And then you called me a few days later to tell me that I owed you another $1500 for my gym. I was taken by surprise and flabbergasted. I called my friend and told him the story, he said something along the lines of: "If you pay him that, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!". You sent me a copy of a ledger that was utterly illegible, I wrote you to tell you what I am writing here, and that you had already been paid in full. If that is what you call being "dismissed summarily like a common servant", then so be it. I would never run my business like that. And I moved on at the time, the only reason it was brought up now was your public trashing of someone who sounds to be an awesome climber who never deserved any of it, especially on this forum. I will also point out that whoever posted your gear lists for your climbs pretty well nailed it (no pun intended). You have obviously done plenty of nailing and plenty of rock alteration in the process. What gives you the right to get so hot and bothered about somebody placing one freaking pin? If you don't want people posting like I have done, then shut it up.
|
|
todd-gordon
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 11:57pm PT
|
Lots of interesting posts......Personally, I too, used to treat climbing like a religion....it seemed so goddamned important, and ruled my life for decades. I personally have banged pins in many times, drilled a shitload of bolts, and always tried to do my best with style and safety. Now that I have 3 infants at home, I feel like, for me anyways, I can cut away the "fat", and get to the meat of life for me ;....happiness, good health, kindness, and fun for myself, my wife, and my babies. It is refreshing to be outside looking in, instead of always inside looking out. What is more of a crime;...scaring a rock or scaring a person? (Believe me... I have done both...many,many times...). Tonight,... I can sleep at night just fine, even with the knowledge that Ammon banged in a pin when he should have used a chock. (Talk to me 15 years ago... another story...)..I totally respect both Ammon and Steve for the inspiring and rad stuff they can do and actually do accomplishment....I am not really taking sides,;..just sort of looking back at how , for so many years, I thought very much like both Steve and Ammon.....Now-a-daze,...I am just thrilled as hell to go out for a half day of easy craggin'.....am I lame and should take up golf ,or am I on to something? ....Do I have the wisdom of a crusty old guy whose been around the block a few times, or am I just a crusty old fart living in the past without a clue?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:26am PT
|
Or are you just an old guy whose farts can be smelled around the block?
I think Hammerchine may have posted in the wrong thread (see Steve's Gym of Smoke.)
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:38am PT
|
Todd, you know you have the wisdom. I happen to write letters about ANWR, and other "causes" too. Not having any chillins gives me the extra time to be outspoken about things that I think matter.
Edit: Too funny Rondaddy! We need to go shooting sometime.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:47am PT
|
no_one,
Fair enough on the safety front. I just still have a bit of hard time with the "elite / crazy" aspect of your line of reasoning. The "elite / crazy" are just who I count on to push the limits and once they illustrate what's possible I do try to rise to that because in a very real sense they've eliminated that much of the unknown. In striving to follow that new ethic or style standard I'm feel I'm already a leg up just by virtue of the fact they did the heavy lifting confronting that particular chunk of fear of the unknown.
Also, that "elite / crazy" characterization tends to shroud such indidviduals with some sort of unattainable anonynimity and casts what was accomplished as some sort of unachievable singularity. I personally find that sort of thing counterproductive and don't really buy into the whole hero thing. Take Ammon. Who would have thought some of the routes he's done could be done in a day, yet he does it again and again. It's obvious it isn't a fluke, he's clearly human, has taken numerous others along, and they all seemed to perform well enough for him to keep at it.
My take is he's simply organized his life to make aid climbing a priority, logged the yardage, paid more than his share of dues, and worked hard to hone his skills. And it probably doesn't hurt that his job happens to entail working hard at heights. It could just be me but I don't consider him "elite" or "crazy" - just dedicated and committed. I don't happen to be into the "speed" thing, but if I were Ammon's approach would resonate and I would strive to emulate it specifically because I don't view it as completely out of reach regardless of whether I ever actually managed to do such a route in a day. If anything, Ammon has shown such ascents are clearly within our grasp...
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:51am PT
|
I can't believe you guys.
It's easy to tell the dickheads in this thread, for sure.
230 posts over one fvcking pin.
Got nothing better to do with your life than bitch about that?
Jesus fvcking christ.
May the non-existant god deliver me from sanctimoneous, self righteous, pissy a$$holes, no matter who they may be.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:54am PT
|
Piton Ron:
I was about to post that you were wrong and that I had indeed posted in the correct thread, when I got your joke. WAY funny, and clever!
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:00am PT
|
Try putting up the interior walls in a 800 square foot gym for more than double the quoted amount, you trying to hit me up for more later, and the details are indeed interesting...and weird.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:05am PT
|
Take your freakin' laundry somewhere else.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:58am PT
|
I read to about 160 but my time is running out and just wanted to contribute my 2 cents.
I think Ammon is a great guy and a great talent. He shouldn't be the poster child for nailing abuse, but the general idea of this thread is creating some positive dialog.
It think it's high time for a greater emphasis on clean and sustainable aid climbing. Aid climbs change from season to season and evolve and devolve quickly, partly because the hammering keeps changing the routes for future generations.
There have been two answers to the changing nature of aid routes:
1. Some folks have engaged in "clean-ups" that involved removing duct-tape, dead heads and broken pins, but also fixed pins, nuts and heads.
2. Some folks try to climb em clean as possible and fix the gear that would have to be hammered to stem the tide of damage.
I think some of the clean-up action is a valuable contribution but removing hammered gear from routes so they have to be re-nailed and re-headed preserves some adventure at the expense of the longevity of the route. I don't feel good about that.
It's funny how the some of the same folks who decry bolting or beefier rivets to make climbs safer and who champion boldness of many sorts think it's OK to hammer on an aid climb if it make you safer.
Now there are devils in the details. Placing a pin on the Nose is a cut and dried sin.
Placing one on the Shield is another matter. My understanding is that the route has only been done clean a few times by folks really sticking their necks out.
Where to draw the line? Who can say. I'd just like to reinforce a culture that looks towards passing down something better than a hammered-out and trashed stone to, hopefully, hundreds of year of future climbers, even if that means some placements have to remain fixed until better gear makes climbing it clean doable
Peace
Karl
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 02:06am PT
|
What better place to take huge whippers than the great golden shield? Still the finest 8 pitches on El Cap, IMVHO.
Right on Karl!
|
|
robman
climber
Wasangeles
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 07:44am PT
|
You go Dixie...
Steve you are an ASS!!!
|
|
robman
climber
Wasangeles
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 08:05am PT
|
You go Dixie...
Steve you are an ASS!!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
|
Scotty Vincik,
I have two routes in that area; The Competitive Edge (aka Real Nose) and the Central Scrutinizer. It sounds like you are after the Central Scrutinizer. Bill Russell had started up the first two pitches before Jay Ladin and I came along.
I stopped releasing topos after the Jolly Roger had a drill taken to it by Duane Raleigh and Tom Cosgriff (Team Arctic Seas) on the first attempt to repeat the route. They retreated below the Gold Doubloon because "the rock was wet," as Duane put it, but they were clearly in over their heads having commenced to drill on A3 ground a few pitches up. Charles Cole and I discovered the mess when Rusty Reno and Alex Lowe repeated the lower pitches and noticed several hook holes. Neither Charles or I drill a hole without filling it so the game was up. Unfortunately, Rusty took a hundred footer on the now infamous mantle move so the hole report stopped there.
The topo for The Central Scrutinizer only appears on Clay Wadman's right side map and it was drawn from memory and hence less than accurate. The Polish party of Maciej Ciesielski and Jacek Czyz is the only known repeat ascent.They sent me a photo topo which I would be happy to send to you. I did a lot of micronutting on this one which is why it took us fourteen days to do it. The info that I tried to spread around at the time was that 8-10 FULL sets of RP's were necessary. Except for freeing the Jardine Traverse, there isn't really much in the way of mandatory free climbing. The route does feature The Continental Drifter (aka South American Vacation), a truely horrific expanding flake some twenty-five feet tall (shaped as the aka implies) that is perched on slightly less than vertical rock and directly attached only at the bottom by an area the size of a guide book spine! I lead the thing on my toes detached from my aiders and ready to jump off at the first groan. Make no mistake, if the flake goes, it's angel wings for your party. I have no problem if you would like to move the station out to the right by adding some bolts. The pitch below is all drilled and not of real consequence. The problem here is that the flake rests in a tiny left facing and right leaning corner so as the belay would move right and so does your partner's ass with no intervening protection! Hopefully the flake would slide and exit stage left which would bullseye the original belay station. Use your discretion well here. The good news is the 3/8" bolt before you actually have to hook accross the top. The route has some exciting climbing and the position at the station below the drilled pitch is right out on the prow and fearsomely exposed. I took a fifty foot fall on the pitch below with two medium RP's (and some fall arresters); all that stood between me and a hundred footer right onto the belay. The sound of those arresters ripping is still with me, I thought my number was up for sure! Jay's comment after holding the screamer was "Steve, I think I might be getting a little old for this sort of thing!" I collected my shits and wits and drove that long bugaboo just a little bit harder the second time around behind the suitcase sized block which was spitting crumbs just missing Jay's head at the belay. It's a thriller for sure and has some really beautiful clean rock despite bumping into Tribal Rite here and there.
The Competitive Edge features more wild free climbing. The Wadman right side map is accurate since Steve Gerberding and company provided a topo (which I could detail) after they repeated the route. The topo for this route is readily available in the Big Wall guidebooks. I hope this information is of use to you.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
|
Hummerchine,
Tom as you may recall your gym was built on an estimate and a handshake. No bid, no contract. The original estimate was to build out part of the space available as represented in a foamcore model of one side only. As the scope of the buildout expanded to cover the entire interior of the space available, so obviously did the expense. Move on.
This crap is a real threadkiller.
|
|
the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
|
"That you and many others, involved in this alpine ghetto game called speed aid climbing, are willing to give yourselves license to climb in poor style is ethically deplorable because it speeds up the degradation of the vertical environment."
My concern with the example used to illustrate the whole premise of the OP, is that the degradation occured not on the clean crux but on an alternate placement. The climbing was not altered for someone who wants to do it clean.
It would have been better style to get it clean. But is it ethically wrong to nail an alternate spot? Or is that a question of style?
Say someone who is 5'4" can't make that reach, can they nail the alternate spot with their ethics intact?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
|
A worthy if minor distinction.
I'm 5'6" and would hate to be the one to say I nailed (albeit an alternate) on a line done clean.
Better to up my skills or rig a cheater stick with a mirror.
|
|
no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2006 - 12:10am PT
|
Healyje,
When I talked about the elite and crazy I wasn't sudgesting that the best or elite climbers among us are crazy, infact, I think most of the elite are far from crazy. I believe they use all their knowledge and experience every time they push their limits to recognize and minimize the risk. Those that have neither the experience or adequate knowledge to recognize the dangers they face or just don't give a damn and do it anyway after a twelve pack, should not (in my opinion) be given the right to change a routes exceptable ethics.
I also agree that the elite amoung us do set a standard for us common folk to strive for and I do respect that. I just can't agree it's right for a routes exceptible ethics to change because one of the elite (damn I'm tired of saying that word) got a hardon towards eliminating every last pin on a route. I do however apploud the goal. Maybe the answer is a certin number of clean ascents. Once a route has been climbed clean say 5 times, than it's a clean line only, I don't know. I'm just whinning right!
|
|
Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2006 - 12:26am PT
|
this thread is so totally f*#ked! you just want to bpost here cuz everyone is reading it!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2006 - 12:36am PT
|
Strong,
I only wish you were right, but Steve is for real. Just needs to expand his time horizon a bit, but maybe thats precluded by the tenets of Mormon Rastafarianism.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!