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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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And stop the racist crap about whitey or westerners. Not only is mucho of it incorrect, but I am pretty sure that if you look at the statistics, you will see huge numbers of guides clients who are Asian or other than "whitey" or western. If you have a problem with guides clients, that's fine. However, don't put yourself on a pedestal and blast others for allegedly discriminating against Sherpa and then do the same yourself against others. I am also pretty sure that non-western guiding companies, including Sherpa owned, do the same thing.
And yes, going through the icefall is quite dangerous. It's one hell of a choice to make to go there. But it's a choice nonetheless.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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It is a choice, but there's always room for improvement in any endeavor.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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God knows why coal miners wanted safety improvements and the like; uneducated hillbillies
were lucky to have jobs, right? Nobody forced them to go down there.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Reilly, you da man.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Reilly, shoring up a mine shaft is one thing, shoring up the Icefall and the mountain above the route may be a bit tricky.
Things like life insurance are reasonable to implement but with money to be made in Nepal, all bets are off for things like reducing traffic of workers or clients on Everest.
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steve shea
climber
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The standard or North Col Route is no bargain. Base camp is at about 15 to 16,000 feet. It is about 12 miles to ABC at 21,000'. We had an interim rest and acclimatization camp at 19,000 which we skipped after acclimating. From the Rongbuk to the 19 camp was basically a trail without too much hazard. Above that however the track ran through a very large seraced area as you came around 'the corner' directly below Changtse. You are exposed not only in the serac section but from hazard coming off of Changtse. This section was only a mile or two but defintely got our attention and we always put it in high gear in this passage. After this you come out of the seraced area to a more benign looking yet dangerous glacier travel nonetheless from a highly crevassed area, many covered from storm snow and wind transport. We had several high altitude porters go in and also lost a yak. Everyone was on rope at all times in this passage. Then you break out of the crevassed area onto a moraine for the rest of the trek up to ABC.
ABC was relatively safe from hazard but still under Changtse and closer to Changtse than the East Ridge of Everest. This giant Hilmalayan amphitheater was closed off to the west by a 3000' wall of ice and snow atop which is the North Col at 24'000'. Here you are on the North Ridge finally. The rim of the Col is one continuous stretch of hanging glacier with peeling serac activity. There was a section that was somewhat open where we fixed our lines to the Col. It was only really safe at close range. Once seracs came off and exploded into smaller pieces a much large area was covered. So the first 1000' off the deck was the worst. We always jugged those lines with an alpine start and headlamps. When coming down we waited till the sun was well over the Col and the amphitheater was back in a cold shadow. Usually 3pm or so.
We spent three weeks up there with no issues. Then one day coming down from a carry past Catalans Camp5 to the lower camp six. Four of us climbers mixed in with five sherpas were descending the lines when a huge serac cut loose, exploded and showered us with Volkswagen sized blocks down to powder. Everyone was miraculously missed but Dawa Nuru Sherpa who was killed instantly by a block. He was our sirdar and a lama and a father from Thame. I was just off the lines and out onto the glacier maybe 100yds when it happened. A very sad ending.
To think that the Rongbuk is a cakewalk is nonsense. There is no Khumbu Icefall but to suggest that it is any more safe just is not so.
BTW we took Nepalese Sherpas over the border on visas with permission from the CMA and the TMA. This was 1986 post monsoon.
Also, to Feldmans point that it has always been like this. Not in my time there. Commercialism yes, but not guided groups. Just did not happen, that I saw, on either the south or the north. If there was any guiding at all it was very much under the table, private and not solicited like todays companies. There were trekkers who paid to join an exped just to go to base camp. But no further. Almost everyone one the mountain was a member, sherpa or high alitude porter. Of course there were lots of failures because of many poorly funded attempts by climbers. But they were climbers not clients. My .02.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Thanks Steve. In everything I've read, the objective hazards just getting to advanced base camp weren't mentioned as I remember. I guess all the glamor goes to the problems higher up and the lower area was just glossed over. Good to have it in perspective.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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two thoughts:
1. at least early 20th century coal miners were contributing to the energy needs of a civilisation, while they were "willing" partners in their "dance". not sure that an ascent of the everest normal route contributes anything to any type of collective need or progression, at this point. obviously climbing in general is one of the most selfish acts. so, i'm not arguing that an individual climber gains nothing from self exploration and personal exploration of the world [on everest or other]. rather, i'm just not sure how it's possible to justify/encourage/hold in esteem the underpaying and underinsuring of the dangerous work of those sherpa supporting and to a large degree carrying the bulk of the risk and literal load of the "exploration" that currently happens on especially the normal routes of the 8000ers.
ie. if someone wants to climb and risk their own life on everest: cool. otoh, if that same climber wants to hire and risk the life of a working [and often family] wo/man trying to eke out a living in a generally impoverished country, then that climber should have the decency, at an absolute minimum, to provide a reasonable livelihood along with a life and rescue insurance policy actually capable of taking care of the family of a fallen worker.
anything less is obscene and just a post modern and individuated reincarnation of colonial conquest.
2. to compare the mid to late 20th century expeditions where there was actual knowledge about human capabilities and the earth we live on being gained to those following along himalayan superhighways of paid climbing conquest that results only in hollow gold stars of "achievement" is also absurd. precisely because things have become safer, and have become more known, is exactly why this type of "exploration" should no longer be held in any kind of esteem [as long as it continues to exploit those who didn't win the lottery of being born in a "have" country].
in sum:
f*#k the self-righteous and esoteric hand wringing that climbers love to do over himalayan oxygen use.
if climbers are serious about "ethics" we should be doing at least as much soul searching about how we treat fellow humans as we do about some conceptual abstraction regarding the "rules" of what has become too often, in the himalaya at least, an absurd and meaningless "game".
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Nah, unlike many people here, I do not think this is such a simple issue. Note that the typical climbing Sherpa makes MUCH more than the typical person in Nepal. I completely agree that having good life insurance should be important for these climbers. However, don't forget that there is nothing to stop the climbing Sherpa from using some of his income from climbing to buy more life insurance. From speaking with "Western" guides - particularly the more junior guides - they get no life insurance from their employer. If they want it, they have to buy it from their salary. And their compensation for climbing Everest is generally not higher than that of a Sherpa (owners and those who help organize the trip aside). Thus, the better questions to ask (IMO) are: (1) how much is enough life insurance (which will clearly differ from person to person)? (2) who pays for the life insurance (and if the employer, will it just come out of the compensation anyway? (3) what type of disability insurance is available? (4) who pays for the disability insurance? Note that the average worker in the US (including those with quite dangerous jobs) get little to no life insurance from their employer, and the life insurance they actually do get, is often not much more than the annual American makes in a year. Anything is up to them. Thus, people with higher incomes often use their own money to buy extra life insurance. The Sherpa could do the same if they do not believe they get enough.
Finally, note that all of this is completely apart from what the Sherpa seek from their government. I do not know enough about what the government does with their money to be able to comment. However, it certainly seems fair that if the government is making all this money from foreigners to engage in activities that rely heavily upon Sherpa that the Sherpa should share in some of the revenue. The downside, of course, is that often when one receives a government benefit (i.e., if the government provided more life or disability insurance), they are often subject to more regulation - which could be good or bad here depending on what it is.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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The humanistic viewpoint of this tragedy is certainly important and should obviously be the focus of the event. However, reading trad_guy's posted article reminded me of the naturally objective dangers the climbers on Everest must face (especially the "strange beginnings" part and the weather observations not seen before). What I haven't read much about is how global warming may be affecting the mountain much like the Sierra is being affected, especially the glaciers.
The humanistic aspects of the Everest tragedy cannot be overstated, but are those aspects overshadowing natural events which may make climbing Everest (or any of the high mountains) more dangerous?
Much like the main focus of hurricane Katrina was covered in mostly humanistic terms (the destruction of property, politics, business loss, charges of racism, etc.) the natural aspects of the hurricane's impact on that area seemed lost in the coverage. Are natural changes being overlooked on Everest as well?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I watched the National Geographic footage,recommended above, part of it taken by a Sherpa a few minutes before the Avalanche. Interestingly, the interviews were done in Nepali though the Sherpas in the background on the ladders, were speaking in Sherpa. The Sherpa comments weren't translated at all and even the Nepali wasn't translated quite right.
When the Sherpa with the camera asked how the route was, he got a very unenthusiastic "It's ok" which then got translated as "it's going very well". When the interviewer who was very upbeat asked again, the reply he got was that the icefall was unstable and that it was ok - or not. One had the definite impression that at least some of the Sherpas there knew things were not what they should be even before the avalanche.
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