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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Mar 21, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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"Green energies" provide jobs. They also create a lot less pollution.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 21, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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The oft employed 'trust funder' smear-the-opposition attempt doesn't inform this debate much. The millions who oppose Keystone can't all be trustifarians, and second - having a trust fund does not preclude one from advocating for long term environmental stewardship.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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Tvash you say it so well
"Jobs are important, but some industries do too much long term damage for those jobs to be worth it. Fully exploiting the tar sands may provide jobs today - but at the expense of jobs in the future as an altered climate erodes humankind's ability to flourish on a planet harsher than the one we evolved on."
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 21, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
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Isn't the mining of tar sands the equivalent of strip mining? What do the native canadians think about tar sands mining? I hear it is an ecological disaster zone. That's why we shouldn't enable it any further IMO.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 21, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
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The primary methods of oil sands extraction are through strip mining. Like mountain top removal, it completely destroys the biosphere there.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 21, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
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Putting lead in paint and gasoline also provided jobs.
So did making asbtesos laden brake pads and insulation.
Should we bring those back? Because you know FREEDUMB! CONSTITUTION!!
Average 'Murcan (kinda like Bluering, except he's a below avg american):
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 21, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
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Putting lead in paint and gasoline also provided jobs.
So did making asbtesos laden brake pads and insulation.
Should we bring those back? Because you know FREEDUMB! CONSTITUTION!!
Average 'Murcan (kinda like Bluering, except he's a below avg american):
Look, Johnson, "green energy" does not work yet. ANd you know it! How many green companies that soaked tax-dollars have failed now? Awesome!
The fact is that we need oil and natural gas to sustain our current economy AND our current lifestyles. Demonizing fossil-fuels is just f*#king stupid. We have cleaned our act up quite a bit and cleaned up the use of such energy.
It's not ideal, but it's the best thing going right now. To invest in the future of an energy alternative we NEED fossil fuels.
It's that simple.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Mar 21, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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"If that's the relationship you want to have with your home world, then have it.
And we'll do things our way."
It is that simple.
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julton
climber
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Mar 21, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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Keystone is one such decision point. It will greatly affect what happens afterwards
Symbolic rather than substantive. A line in the tar sands.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 21, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
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The XXL Pipeline. How does this damage this US?
Can someone answer that?
Don't we only benefit from this? Jobs, Canadian oil - what's wrong with that?
This has almost nothing to do with tar-sands in the US and fracking.
EDIT: Karen, what if I told you that Warren Buffet benefits from sending oil to CHina on his rail-lines? Yet you only hold the Koch Bros in contempt?
got bias?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Mar 21, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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That oil is coming out. Pipelines are way better than trucks and trains. There are like 2 million miles of pipeline in the U.S. already, much of which carry refined gasoline- which is way more of an environmental risk than crude.
Tie approval to some alternative energy subsides and every one wins.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 21, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
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That oil is coming out. Pipelines are way better than trucks and trains. There are like 2 million miles of pipeline in the U.S. already, much of which carry refined gasoline- which is way more of an environmental risk than crude.
Tie approval to some alternative energy subsides and every one wins.
That's what I'm saying, man. This XXL is a "no-brainer". Everbody wins except the Chners, Saudis, and Russkies.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Mar 21, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
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Point being that oil hasnt just helped enrich the coffers of the big oil companies. It has allowed thousands to provide for their familes, educate their children, and secure their retiement. People who have been blessed with financial security might more easily look at such subjects as solid job opportunities with less interest. Not specifically saying anyone, just figure someone on this forum is crying to change the world and they are of the never really needed to work and have a lot of idle time to do something constructive not saying anything is wrong with that......But there are a lot of jobs tied to oil in the states, quite a bit in this part of the country. Oil does work at the moment and it would be good to have less reliance on outside sources. Certainly not opposed to alternative fuels. Make it happen all you smart super topo change the world types and i will do what I can to support you! But all least stop your bashing of posters. This is what debate is all about discussion, opinions, and thoughts.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Mar 22, 2014 - 08:47am PT
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Arguments ,not bashing.
Tell me how this will not lead to expansion.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 22, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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Thanks to Base 104 for some insite from the inside on this thread. I really enjoy your contributions.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 23, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
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Karen, follow the money. http://www.btionline.org/index.html
Funded by the World Bank?
I can prove to you that these do-gooders are full of crap. They just want to shake-down wealthy economies for money, making them feel guilty.
Ever hear of this dude named Jesse Jackson? Same racket.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 23, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
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I can prove to you that these do-gooders are full of crap. They just want to shake-down wealthy economies for money, making them feel guilty.
You can? That is amazing. Why don't you publish and submit it?
For starters, please post the science.
I keep yacking that people should pay attention to the last really big climate event that is known to have been caused, at least in part, by CO2 levels: the Cretaceous Climate Maximum.
If we start bumping into 1000ppm CO2 concentrations, we will be playing with fire. During that period there are some pretty cool fossil distributions. Dinosaurs and temperate plants well north of the arctic circles for example. Sea level was much higher, and what is now the U.S., the east and west were separated by an ocean, the Cretaceous Interior Seaway. I can show you where to go look at the Cretaceous fossils if you happen to be driving across I-70.
That is what I am looking at. A past event, known to be caused by CO2 levels associated with the break up of Pangea, warmed the planet by about 6 degrees C. Give or take. It was enough to totally change the landscape of the planet.
Why is the truth so utterly molested in this argument? Why is opinion so skewed by political ideology? I mean, the planet doesn't care who you vote for.
When the whole global warming thing started, it is well known that some right wing groups and fossil fuel companies started sprinkling many millions of dollars with the agenda of spreading doubt. The rest of the world didn't have this false doubt propaganda, and some European countries are making big changes regarding their fossil fuel use.
Being an "oil man," I must say that some of this garbage really offends me. These are my peers in many cases, but they are the business guys, not the geoscientists.
I know how to find oil. I don't feel too bad about this profession as long as I keep my ears open and carefully evaluate the science. That means not reading sh#t from blogs or ideological or politically based baloney that is out there for anyone to find.
In the circle of the carbon cycle, I feel that I am pretty equal to a person working at a gas station or a consumer who uses oil. The one biggy that everyone is ignoring is the basic strategic and economic problems that we are facing as we face the world oil production capacity peaking. We are running out of oil, and our country is in a very dangerous position based on our consumption habits alone...never mind climate change. We need to switch our fuel choices soon, because we are looking at very high oil prices in the future. That doesn't even include our addiction forcing us to buy oil from some of the nastiest nations on the planet.
We won't go anywhere until we raise attention among your average voting person. This is an uphill battle because the propaganda ideocrats have been poisoning the well since day 1.
Having a long career in the energy business has made me very aware of oil price fluctuations and their cause. I make a lot of my money from small royalty interests in oil and gas wells that I have found throughout my career. Since it is part of my income, and oil price directly affects the economics of exploration prospects, I've just paid a lot more attention to planet wide production and consumption patterns for the last 28 years.
I try to be as honest as I can about this.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 23, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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You can? That is amazing. Why don't you publish and submit it?
If all these do-gooders really gave a crap about people, why did we ban DDT?
Why are there people living in poverty in Africa, starving?
Why do we do nothing about people chopping off limbs of others just because they subscribe to another religion?
Why do we say nothing about 'finning' sharks so some as#@&%e can have a bowl of soup?
There are many more worthy, and easily identifiable problems to solve that don't require a gov't-funded scientist.
What exactly is your solution to the 'energy crisis' anyway, BASE? Your immediate solution. What should we do? And give me something that is reasonable and not pie-in-the-sky bullshit that can not happen anytime soon.
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