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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Nov 26, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Confederate motorcycle...
Is this bad?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 26, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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cool!
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 26, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
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^^^^idiot^^^^^
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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I didn't wade through all the mudslinging here; but if you want to know something about the typical soldier during the war, read the following:
The Life of Billy Yank: The Common Soldier of the Union
The Life of Johnny Reb: The Common Soldier of the Confederacy
These are collections of letters, diaries, newspaper accounts and official records.
(both authored by Bell Irvin Riley
For an extensive read on the war from a typical Southern family:
Mary Chestnut's Civil War edited by Vann Woodward
Here is a rich and full conxtext, as the author herself recreated it. It is by all odds the best of all Civil War memoirs, and one of the most remarkable eyewitness accounts to emerge from that war or any war.
Louis D. Rubin, Jr., The New Republic
As far as flags of the Confederacy go, here is a brief synopsis:
The first (unofficial) flag of the confederacy, known as the Bonnie Blue Flag was first flown in this capacity over the capital of Mississippi when that state succeeded from the union. It's design is practically a twin of the flag of the short-lived Republic of West Florida of 1810.
The idea behind the flag was a reversal of the Union's flag, blue stars on a white field. As states succeeded another star would be added.
That idea didn't last long (although you still see some folks hanging onto the past with license plates depicting the Bonnie Blue Flag. A few people I know claim it represents their pride in being Southern, but it seems ironic that they have a deeply seated hate for Black Americans.
The first official flag, "The Stars And Bars" came about after a contest created by the government of the Confederacy to design a distinctive flag.
The winning design was created by Nicola Marchell, a noted Southern artist who also designed the Confederate uniform.
It was first raised over the then capital of the Confederacy in Montgomery, AL on March 4, 1861, the day of Lincoln's inauguration.
The flag was criticized for closely resembling the Union flag, so another was created and was raised over the capital in Richmond in 1863. This utilized the Battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (which evolved into the official Battle Flag of the Confederacy) placed on a field of white.
Battle Flags were essential to warfare at that time so that commanders could ascertain the location and progress of troops. A battle flag was never to be laid down or surrendered. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia was adopted because the Confederate National flag was hard to distinguish from the opposing forces, especially in light of the fact that Southern troops were still wearing blue uniforms. The origin of the flag was taken from a losing design proposed in the contest for the first flag of the Confederacy.
Yet another flag was adopted in late in the war March 1865. It was the second flag with a vertical red bar added to prevent the confusion caused by a limp National Flag resembling a flag of surrender.
It was short-lived as Lee surrendered both the Battle Flag and the National Flag in April 1865.
As far as symbolizing hate, heritage and other ideas the debate will rage on. A couple of facts. The Confederate Battle Flag was added to the Georgia State Flag in 1956 to blatantly protest the Brown vs Board of Education decision and forthcoming legislation. It was dropped in 2001.
Despite this fact, some residents refuse to fly the new flag. Such people claim it is a matter of preserving history; history that is shameful and nothing to be proud of.
On the other hand, a U.S. warship flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II.
Personally, I would never flaunt a flag that would be insulting to others, no matter what. It ain't good manners.
One last note; which actually made return to this thread was seeing this art; which was or is being utilized by Kane West.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 11, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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Lol, Sketch tries to deflect criticism of the confederate flag by saying "see, black people can be racist too."
Right sketch, because we all know black racism has been such a huuuuge problem in American history.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 11, 2013 - 11:45am PT
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A few people I know claim it represents their pride in being Southern, but it seems ironic that they have a deeply seated hate for Black Americans.
no way!
According to Fox News, racism ended the very moment when Rosa Parks remained seated.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 12, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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Anyway the south of my youth woulda kept burchey busy. I'd like to think his brand of justice would satisfy anything but his stated base need to beat someone up ; that's communication for his lot.
I grew up in Kentucky, which may look like the midwest on a map, but is very southern in culture and outlook. I was force-bused downtown where Muhammad Ali went to high school as Cassius Clay, with an armed National Guardsman sitting in the front seat of the bus for the first week of school. Greg Page, one of the top heavyweight fighters in the world at the time was a classmate at Central High School. Back in those days, the segregation that DMT describes upthread was common. Louisville has come a long ways since those days in the mid-seventies. Still some racist boneheads exist, but the vast majority of folks have become more open in their outlook while keeping their strong southern pride. Being proud of southern culture does not equate to believing that slavery was right. Only a fool with no understanding of the South would assert such a stupid thing.
I also agree with DMT, having seen his posts on other threads that the OP for this thread is basically a bully that likes to stir things up. . .very similar to some of the rednecks that I grew up with.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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"Do you know how many n*s are in Russellville, Kentucky?"
So am I to take it that "n*s" doesn't mean "nobel prize winners"?
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Dec 12, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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Jalapenos in hushpuppies is common in Louisiana, although nobody puts cheese in there unless they are making a hushpuppie, bacon, and cheese omelette.
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Dec 12, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
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^^^^mmmm. canadian pimento loaf.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 12, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
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Well damn I liked the guy except for the obsessive compulsive thing going on with that Kiwi dude.
Burchey was not long for this world.
But
He will be back..lol
I'm sure of that.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
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He scoffed at Ron. Ain't that 'nuff?
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 13, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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My son has a black mom.
I am white, my son's mother is black, he is what some Valley gurls call 'mixed', like pouring milk into coffee, not sure if having a Ukrainian parent and a Finnish parent makes you 'mixed; as well?
Dating a black girl/guy and having a child with a black girl is certainly something you have to do to know how racism is alive. Sure is. Even up here in Canada; at least down in the south or many places in the States people are outright and vocal about it, whereas up here its more hidden and is referred to as "racism with a smile". In the depression there were like 35,000 card carrying KKK members in Alberta.
I have been to the South two times, I actually spent my hard earned money to go to Alabama, Georgia and Tennessee to climb and would I go back. Yes. Would I bring my son? Yes. Would I be afraid for my son? No. Am i naive, maybe. However, I travelled with my son, who does not have the same skin color as myself in many parts of the USA from Cali to Texas to Utah, Idaho, Montana.
Actually I take my son to Montana ever year to climb, it is wonderful to have such a great place to climb right below us in Alberta. I never feel threatened there Never Ever! I am sure some people harbor thoughts but no more than in redneck Alberta and I have been to many parts of Montana.
Now for the real issue, the Confederate flag: I think it does represent now, as a foreigner, that if you have a sticker, flag or whatever, it does come across as being redneck, supporting right wing beliefs to teh extend that your unconcerned about what others think of your very dodgey past, sorry if that offends anyone. I think most non-southern people DO see it as a SYMBOL of racism that wont die in those half dozen states. Up here I see that flag being sold as license plate covers, flags and I hate to sterotype but it seems to only appear on big trucks and guys with backwards ballcaps and Tapout shirts. Do I think they are Klan members or want to be, no. I think they are trying, very hard, to project an image of how non-liberal, tuff, offensive they can be. I doubt half of them know squat about the Civil war, or care. Like what does Canada have to do really with the Confederate flag that you need to display it up here!!? Zero. Its just an image they want to have to make their redneck look complete as a 4H Club sticker wont cut it.
However, was I offended when I was there climbing and seeing the flag. Yes and no. First off I know where I bought a plane ticket to.To be honest, as a design sense, I think it is a very cool looking flag, but I think what it partially represents is repugnant of course. I don't see the need for people to show off waving it about as it does offend folks down there I am sure, but I have no fact to back that up. Up here in Canada if you had a sticker or flag, yes people would think you are a try-hard redneck wanna be KKK'er. Very few Canadians I have ever met whom travel cannot say they have been to the deep south, in fact climbing or not, I only know one person, so from watching Duke boys, Mississippi Burning and etc flicks we see it as rascist or most would I can assure you.
I think the south is a great place and I would go back. Personally I think the food was crap, everywhere was just greasy fried and chain resturants. I love HP40 and Mike the owner. I have a neat photo of huge snowflakes falling on Matin Luther Kings tomb! The entire MLKing heritage area in Atlanta was an amazing experience. I saw lots of school kids there on field trips whom were white, black and Asian. The museum in Birmingham is one of the best I have ever been to anywhere in the world. They have a real KKK white costume(cause dats what it is) in a glass case, the front part of the burned out Greyhound that was bombed in Birmingham that you can go into, white only drinking fountains etc. The park across the street from the Baptist church that was fire bombed by the Klan killing some little girls had some eye opening statues about the park of police dogs attacking blacks, police hosing people- they really have balls to erect that stuff in a city, and they seem to have accepted their past in those places.
Then again, if you go north to Kenesaw, Georgia you can go into a KKK musuem. Yep true. Costs like $1 to see some haggard old dude hoard a mountain of KKK crap, black baby dolls on nooses and him referring to the president as Ojama (how intelligent).
One day while it rained hard at HP40, I did a road trip to see more of Alabama. I drove to Selma which holds an important part of the history there. If you drive the road from Selma to Montgomery where the MLKing walk was done, you can stop on the side of the highway to see memorials to the white ladies that the Klan killed during that walk in opposition to white ladies supporting the blacks struggle. I never googled Selma so i had no idea what to expect - small town with a historical center and arching bridge where the infamous Walk started. I was dying of hunger and when I travel I never visit chain resturants so the only place was this family run okra chicken joint. First off everyone in town is black! I went in to get food. There was a half dozen people in the lineup. They very well may have been thinking whats the honky doing in here. But I needed food. I picked out my meal and the girl asked me if I wanted a side of okra. She said it fast and with a serious accent to this Canadian. Kinda like "Waacha wan, si of fry oka" and i said "Sorry what?" She repeated it like 4 times, I could feel the sweat bead on my head. I still had no idea what was coming out of her mouth! Then some well dressed gentlemen stuck his head out of the line behind me and said in Queens English" She wants t know if you want some Okra"
Everyone in the line smiled, laughed, giggled. It was a very warming moment I will never forget. I walked out with the food bag to my car and this, and I am gonna say it, 'gang looking' boat was parked next to me. The window slowly unrolled and this gangly black guy leaned his head out as I pulled out my keys, and said, "Where you from man?" I said I was from Canada visiting to climb rocks here and visit the South. He said, "That's cool" and gave me an honest smile and rolled his window back up.
If you go visit the South, which I recommend, on those rainy climbing rest days, spend some time and see what it has to offer. It really is not what movies play it up to be. Go explore and learn! Don't go with some ra-ra 1960s revolution attitude, they changed their own world for the better years ago and seem to be slowly working on it. Not every white person you see is part of the Klan nor is every black person gonna kill you for something that happened 40 years ago. Besides the food, if you wanna see rich history, gosh this is the place to go! My favorite place in the world is California, I love Los Angeles, San Fran, but I feel way more threatened there than the south regardless of what flag is flapping in someones window.
take care
P.S.- two things about having a kid with dark skin: I wont ever have to shell out $ for him to go lay in a tanning bed when he's 17 to attract the chixx, and can any of you say you have posed with the Bloods?! We have!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dec 13, 2013 - 09:27am PT
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Good stories Gerg. Thanks for sharing. The generation that grew up on Dukes of Hazard probably has a skewed perception of what what a Confederate flag represents and I'll leave it at that.
Edit to add a southern food story. Many years ago a BF and I traveled to New Orleans to stay with a friend who was house-sitting one of those grand old mansions in the Garden District. One day our buddy hands us the keys to a car and a map and tells us "go have lunch at this restaurant.". So off we go.
We start driving... the houses get more run down, the city folk get more disheveled and the demographic definitely becomes completely African American. We pull up to the address... "are we in the right place???" It's a private home with a faded hand-painted sign outside that reads "Mabel's" and "OPEN". We're two dumb-looking white kids and definitley feel out of place. A friendly neighbor smiles and gives us a nod so we knock on the door.
An old black woman opens the door. When I say "old"... I mean probably witnessed the ratification of the 13th Ammendment-old. We tell her we have come for lunch...she motions to follow and she shuffles us into her well-worn circa 1950 kitchen and sits us down at the only small table. She asks what we would like... we say "what do you have?". She says.."well, I got fried chicken"... (long pause as we wait for choice #2...then we realize there is no choice #2) "Ok...we'll have the fried chicken". BEST fried chicken and dumplings EVER BTW.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 13, 2013 - 10:59am PT
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A friend working for the Southern Railroad had to abandon his H-D Sportster down in High Point, Mississippi because of a flood. The next week we jumped in a van to go fetch it.
For lunch he takes us to Anthony's Grocery Store. In back is a small kitchen with a few tables. Lunch is $2.50 and served family style.
Three huge black women are running the place. They start us out with a pitcher of ice tea. Then comes lunch:
a skillet of cornbread with sliced onion piled on top; creamed corn, not creamed corn out of a can but CREAMED corn just cut off the cob; greanbeans cooked with bacon; mashed potatoes; a platter of pot roast so tender you didn't need teeth to eat it.
When we cleaned out a dish, they brought another.
That was the best restaurant meal I've ever had. $2.50. I wanted to marry each one of those gals.
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