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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 15, 2013 - 08:53am PT
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Removeable bolts are for temporary pro in rt developement and not even remotely suitable for that application.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 15, 2013 - 09:04am PT
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Last month up at TM Ryuichi and Hiroshi did Blown Away over on DAFF. My knee was acting up so I sat it out getting more jealous by the minute watching and taking pictures.
First thing out of Ryiuichi's mouth when he got down was" thank you"
"What do you mean? I'm just siting here taking pictures"
"If you hadn't got us on those climbs at Joshua Tree and Tahquitz, we could have never done this"
So Todd, please don't go back and neuter all the "pre children" routes. ;-)
You can't learn to keep your head together on a runout slab, without leading some runout slabs.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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My point is that there needs to be mutual respect for the FA, whether clip up or run out. I was being facetious (just a little) when I said I should be able to chop FA bolts on a clip up without talking to the FA to make a point. You can't have it both ways.
If the FA, says it's ok to add bolts, have at it, but if you think not using them somehow recreates the original experience you just don't get it. If you are someone who had no involvement in the "creation" of the route and think it is ok to start modifying it to YOUR tastes without talking to the "creators", under the guise of knowing what is best for everyone, YOU are the one that has the ego problem. It has nothing to do with ownership. It is about respect for what other people value.
There should be some routes that don't have masses of newly minted gym climbers lining up at the base. The last thing we need with land managers scrutinizing us is another round of "bolt wars" that only lead to the rock being disrespected while puny humans bicker over the arrangements of deck chairs on the titanic.
Maybe as all of us old farts die out, the new farts can do whatever they want. But something will have been lost. Narrowing the range of experience and eliminating risk diminishes our existence. Much respect to younger climbers climbing way harder than I ever did, but please don't turn the sport into a purely physical challenge. As most mountaineers will attest, learning to manage risk will keep you alive in the long run.
The dinosaurs will be ok because we still know where some hidden gems are that most folks won't ever hike to, let alone retro-bolt. I guess bold climbing will become some bizarre ritual practiced by secret societies in obscure places.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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"Just don't clip the bolts if you don't like em"
Probably the weakest imaginable argument for altering an existing route.
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DavidRoberts
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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As opposed to "I was the first to climb it, bolted it to my preference, and now everyone has to live with it." It is a PUBLIC resource. None of us own it. Not you, not me. If you don't have the sac to bypass a bolt, then you should just go climb an easier route.
David Roberts
Alpine, CA
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
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I remember being a beginner and looking at run-out Jonah at Tahquitz and dreaming of the day I might do it. I'd have to be bad ass, and I wanted to be because then I could climb Jonah (done in 1963 by Tom Higgins). Now, being bad-ass is equated with macho posturing and testosterone addled lunacy and egotism so there is really only one thing to do.
First, we accept the modern credo that no one owns the route, that the FA has no rights to the route, and no rights to impose to anyone after the FA how they should climb it. All of these rights now lie entirely with the individual. Whereas we once wished upon a star, now we can wish entirely upon our own self, blaming the FA folk of selfishness if we are robbed of our freedom to climb exactly as we so choose.
Today it is our sovereign right to regulate the degree of mental commitment, risk and challenge of a given route, and since it is impossible to gauge what that level is for everyone, slab/face routes will now be bolted every six feet. This practice will commence with bolting up Black Primo on Middle Cathedral. The now dozen or so bolts will be upped to 500, and if you want have the original experience you are totally "free" to skip as many bolts as you please. Next up with the Bachar/Yearian, then The Edge, which will be a really fun route out there on the edge with a bolt every body length for good measure. And while you're at it, piss on Tobin's grave.
Because the FA has no right to tell us where to climb, a 2nd and 3rd line of bolts, running 10-feet right and left of the original line, will give us the freedom to choose where we climb on the climb of our own design.
Because 72 draws are too much to lug for a 120 foot pitch, they will all be left in place. And each bolt and draw will be eco gear that will blend into the rock.
Since the FA doesn't own the climb, whatever name was given to a route is no longer valid because it might not square with the moniker that is more in keeping with the wilderness experience and ambiance that Josh and Gina have in mind and desire for their climbing adventure. This is a "personal" thing after all, so every route will be assigned a simple number, leaving each ascent to name the route according to their very own likes. For example, this is Gina's "Natal Birthday Route," or Josh's "White Rapper Fandango" climb. To each his/her very own. after all, none of us know what Gina is looking for with her climbing experience, and it is the routes responsibility to conform to Gina's wishes, for expecting Gina to rise to the level of the route is to tell Gina what to do, and that no longer washes in 2013. Nobody "owns" Gina.
Next, since history, heritage, and tradition has no right to impose itself on our freedom this very minute, no route history will ever be recorded because after all, no one "owns" the route, ergo no ascent is any more meaningful than any other ascent.
These improvements reflect the evolution of the sport and the advances each generation makes on the work of the previous generation. It will be interesting to see how future generations will advance the cause beyond the model just prescribed, and how each and every route can reflect our right to a personal experience and absolute freedom as we define it.
JL
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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"If you don't have the sac to bypass a bolt then you should go climb an easier route."
Hahahaha WTF? Am I reading this right? Hahaha
If you don't have the sac to do a route the way it is then you should do something else.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 15, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
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Hear, hear!
Largo for the win.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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Teach your children well,
then let them go their own way.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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I agree with Largo about 90%. His straw-man doesn't address the obvious logic flaws pointed out by jghedge, but I would hate to see a world where all the bold climbs were neutered. I hope that never happens. Soloist claiming routes pisses me off, but not enough to start drilling. I also wouldn't be pissed if someone threw a few bolts on Solitary Confinement. Whatever. There is a lot of rock out there. Most of the people who want to do climbs with bolts every 6' will gravitate to sport crags and will not be interested in slab or risky climbing. Everyone arguing extreme points of view with the words "always" and "never" needs to chill. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
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Deekaid
climber
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Sep 15, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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i love sarcastic largo...nice one
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Abissi
Trad climber
MI
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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Get this, I used to climb at Ralph Stover "High Rocks" Pennsylvania back in the 70's. A bunch of us put up a lot of new gear routes, I don't think here was a bolt in the whole place.
The guidebook that was sold at the time listed the routes and put them in there correct place (the Practice block, The Jungle, The Cramped Face etc. Along comes a guy who wants to write a new guidebook. Cool, somebody who is going to take on a labor of love.
When I first got my mitts on a book I was appalled by what I saw. First off he renamed the sections of the cliff, mostly to "Biblical" names. like the Joshua 1:4 area. (BTW, I am an ordained clergyman. I like Biblical names BUT never having parts of the cliff renamed and obliterating the history behind them) Next, Many, Many climbs were renamed and the author listed himself as the first ascentionist.
We really stuck our necks out when we did the FA's climbing with old non-sticky shoe on the Brunswick Shale that he cliff is made out of. Climbs like the "Pit and the Pendulum" (5.9X) became "the Phone Booth. "Obnoxious Partner" one of the best climbs of that era, put up by Mike and Pete Werner, was now some name like Nehemiah ???. One of many climbs i put up survived the name cut. Climbs that were put up back in the 1940's were now accredited to someone else (More than not the Author of the book.
I really think the law of the first ascent was violated here. Recently I had a Facebook chat with a guy who climbs in the area. When I mentioned "The Cramped Face", an area that was host to some climbs hat were put up by Lou Lutz back in the 1930's, this area is central to the whole climbing area. He had no idea what i was talking about. this guy climbs there most everyday. The book author obliterated the history of the area.
Yeah, sorry for some of the ranting. whenever I think of the disservice that was done I get mildly upset.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
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Sorry Warbler, your call for a discussion was railroaded by extremist hyperbole and absolutes.
Makes sense that the myth of rugged individualist would have said individualist assume that dissent from the community would degrade into an anarchy of individualistists.
Thinking of the community wasn't an issue in 1973, so why should it be in 2013?
This is all getting surreal like a Spaghetti Western.
We get it trad dads, its your way or the highway.
Guns a blazing at high noon over slabs!
History has spoken and its taking the highway.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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Like I said - compromise on a few glaring examples of run-amuck run-outs now.
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But who will be the arbiter of what "run-amuck," and what do you do when Gina says your solution doesn't go far enough, that you have no right to tell her what risk she has to take?
And who in their right mind believes that "logic" and ration are the handmaidens of rock climbing and adventuring? Logic says not to go at all. Rants about climbing ethics not being logical are about as germane and relevant as doughnut holes. You want logic, you picked the wrong game. Go play chess.
The problem is that there is no middle ground once you disrespect the first ascent and start down the path of regulating risk according to your own likes. The reason to do so, we are told, is to make the route more accessible to more people, to up the utility of a public resource. So to make a given route acceptable to all the more, you have to grid bolt it and, as it has been said repeatedly on this thread, those wishing for a bolder experience have the option to bypass the bolts. This is not a straw man argument, but said scarecrow is the quintessence of what people have said they wanted: For the route itself to impose NOTHING on them in terms of risk.
Why this is a totally preposterous approach is that it assumes adventure sports, to be anything at all, must be attainable to every able bodied yuppie out there, and they should have the right to regulate the degree of acceptable risk. Nobody owns the rock. So we end up with something that is totally denatured, but makes for great Facebook shots. This is an improvement . . . this is Patrick's "highway."
Ain't it grand. And so far as the "myth" of this or that, why not hop up on one of those X routes and report back to us about the mythology you mentioned.
Thought so.
JL
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
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With respect mt10901...We are definitely not in agreement....Yours is still the minority view. The FA owns the route, not the rock, after all this thread has put forward. In the real world of say, Tuoulumne, you put a route up in the style you wish, so long as it isn't a squeeze, and your creation is respected. If someone wants to change it, the FA is consulted and the community decides. And to this point, the community has decided along with the FA. If gear is added without the FA's consent, it is removed.
The only reason I keep posting is because a lot of work is going into re-bolting older climbs and also in putting up safer climbs. It would be a waste of time if a new ethic were imposed, rendering that hard work (and guide books!) useless. Routes, whether new or old take a lot of work and there are relatively few actually doing the work to put them up and even fewer preserving them. The FA's did the initial hard work but aren't preserving their vision much. Maybe when those doing the re-bolting are also done and down the road, the climbs will truly disappear. No-one at this point has raised a cry to change the routes while re-bolting. And the new climbs put up by Greg Barnes and Brian Law et. al. show that safer climbs can live in harmony with a tradition that is still alive and well.
This is just talk while the real work is being done.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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Do what is best for CLIMBING.
A cool drink of Kamps clarity circa 1965.
Once you step back from self interest and entitlement while offering a long top rope for the timid then the arguments around the first ascent principle start to fall away pretty quickly.
Better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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The myth is that of the rugged individualist, the pioneer, the western hero archetype in literature and art.
I get it, but as a consumer I also don't.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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I'd like to introduce a subtlety that will be lost on a few here...
Let me propose that there is a distinction between the route and the rock upon which it exists. Now, of course, rock is the physical object that does exist and was here long before--and probably long after--we tailless monkeys started playing here. It cannot be rationally owned but we agree that it is often held in common trust for all us monkeys.
The rock is a mental construct of a physical object which we all agree is public property and, as such, is unownable yet "owned" by each of us. We, usually, agree that it is be conserved, protected, and yet be accessible to all. Individual ownership is anathema in this regard.
Now, a route on the other hand is also a mental construct, but one that is not strictly physical. Sure, in our monkey minds, we know that it "exists" on physical rock, yet we imbue it with something more. Over the years, we have generally and collectively agreed that climbing routes also reflect the times, skills, the mental makeup, and the values of the FA party. They "created" the route; it wasn't there before it was climbed. It wasn't included in any monkey's guidebook beforehand, and as such it reflects many aspects of first ascender. A route in this sense is inseparable from the creator. We can say, without equivocation, that the route is owned by the FA team. Of course, you silly, they don't own the rock!
You can--if you choose--disregard the style of the first ascent and claim some higher right to do as you will. After all, you do own the rock. Just don't forget that we own it too, and Martin Buber might have a few words for you. The tragedy of the commons, indeed...
The fact is, I do own the god damned route. It is the FA's creation and it exists in a mutually-agreed space in our monkey minds. You can propose that you have the right to dumb down the route for whatever self righteous and arrogant, hairbrained reason you might have, but the fact is you can't alter the route. You don't own it!
Rail all you want, it won't do you a bit of good. The route exists, and it is "owned", Joe. Maybe after us toothless olde tykes of yesteryear are gone to dust, and everyone who ever knew us has forgotten, a new route will rise in some monkey's mind.
But in the meantime, the route exists and the rock abides. Deal with it.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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JHedge.....As I said before, it's amazing that people get so worked up over posts from someone who has ZERO credibility. I know what's happening in the real world and can back it up. You cannot. Plain and simple. Largo's point of view may be extreme but he surely can back it up and has the support of the community at this time. I would be happy to watch you place a bolt on any of his climbs and watch the results in real time. You like to be inflammatory but your flames have no heat.
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