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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 30, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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There were no aid moves on Archangel after Thom freed it
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:00am PT
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Article in then Boulder Daily Camera this morning by Chris Weidner.
http://www.dailycamera.com/recreation-columnists/ci_23762980/confessions-climbing-criminal-when-saintly-intent-turns-sinful
My take on these recent fixed anchor and climbing style controversies—Archangel, Cerro Torre, etc-- is that it reinforces that the climbing world is getting smaller and smaller. Like it or not we are a loose, worldwide community, now firmly bound together by the internet. Actions taken even on obscure climbs have a larger impact on that community than one can imagine. I have never met Chris, but have enjoyed his articles in the local paper. The article today makes clear that Chris, a top climber, excellent writer, and a very thoughtful guy, had no idea that there would be any controversy in retrobolting this route.
I learned a little about this topic from my thread last year entitled, “ Super Chicken on Medlicott, add bolts to third pitch?”
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1617265/Super-Chicken-on-Medlicott-add-bolts-to-third-pitch
The subject, whether to add a couple of bolts to an insignificant climb in TM to make it safer for the average climber, received hundreds of posts.
After a long discussion on ST both pro and con, it seemed to me that the wiser course was to not change the route at all. My main reason for posting that thread was to consult the TM community before taking unilateral action, even on a route I "owned" as a result of being on the first ascent.
Before starting the Archangel project, if Chris had taken a few minutes to post the question: “Add bolts to Archangel in Boulder Canyon? “on MP and ST, a lot of gnashing of teeth and rending of garments could have been avoided.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:11am PT
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Or, just go bolt it and don't tell anyone. Pre- posting for approval on a sh#t show thread like this would guarantee routes would never be maintained. Bolts are getting chopped either way.
Honestly, the extreme criticism of Chris even after multiple sincere apologies by prominent members of the vanguard climbing community is disheartening. The lesson seems to be respect the rock by some nebulous set of ever-changing rules, but beat your fellow climbers when they are down. Now the readership of Chris's column is in on this dysfunctional family.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:19am PT
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Patrick the readers of Chris's excellent collumn ARE climbers and every bit as dysfunctional as the rest of us here.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:21am PT
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Post comment from the column:
'You guys remind me of surfers about 20 years ago. A bunch of self righteous d-bags arguing over idiotic things like the above and then one day some fat guy goes out and does it and the sport is totally demystified'
Great PR for the climbing community. Well done tradsters. You won.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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I stand by what I said. You don't go do the Naked Edge in it's pins and aid FA style do you?
Yo, Philo. True, but folks routinely aid the Nose, Moonlight Butress, Half Dome, etc. Maybe not with pins, but those routes are free...I see people aiding Country Club crack all the time.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 31, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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FrankZappa all too true. That is why I said there are no hard set rules governing our actions only acceptance (or not) of the general consensus. And I spoke for myself and what was once paramount to me personally regarding style. My time was the 70s. A time of clean, bold and chalkless climbing.
Those stylistic approaches were a product of that times ethics. Times change. Too many climbers of today are only concerned with ticking a list of "reputation" climbs and not on the style of their ascent. Thus you have scads of folks using all manner of cheats and claiming a bold ascent for bragging rights. The "do it as well or do it better" thinking was important in my time because I wanted to be the best I could be given the context of my time. So those people who are having a grand time big walling the Nose with direct aid and all are not in the vanguard of climbing's evolution. But I would bet more and more of those folks are trying to do it clean now. People still practice Ironmongery but fortunately the ethic of clean climbing redirected the bulk of the climbing community towards less destructive practices.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:15am PT
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That is an assumption that has been made countless times before.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:17am PT
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So a route a person (Thom) top roped over a hundred times, put bolts and who know how many pins on rappel and you old trad climbers are praising his ascent and you verbally abuse Chris for adding bolts and cleaning it up.
First thing that comes to my mind is hypocrites.
And then there is Eric who top ropes routes, claims a FA and calls them "trad" and then get piss when someone does "his" routes with bolts.
Eric...trad climbing start from the ground and then goes up...sport climbing starts from the top...just like your top roping. Very bold trad climbing on your part.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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So after beating the guy to pulp while he is down, now we are patronizing? This just keeps getting better.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:46am PT
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So funny coming from the guy who wrote this and started the name calling...
"I think someone should return it to the standard it was set in..
**Some nutless wunder decides "IF it was actually done>?" Like the BY is just a myth???
Piss poor performance all the way around... Someone send the retro bolter a bottle of calcium pills sos he can develop a spine..."**
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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If you say so Ron..."I think someone should return it to the standard it was set in..
**Some nutless wunder decides "IF it was actually done>?" Like the BY is just a myth???
Piss poor performance all the way around... Someone send the retro bolter a bottle of calcium pills sos he can develop a spine...**
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:54am PT
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Or you could apologize, but you and the rest of the tradsters including Mr. Long are above this.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 31, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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Ron = 21822 posts full of nothing. Others in this forum could do us all a service by ignoring them.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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Ron wrote: YOU might take an example from CW...
So funny.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
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It is isn't about the route, that is a piece of stupid rock. It is about a guy like Chris who is clearly trying to do the right thing getting called a pussy even after he apologizes profusely on the interwebz.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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So you said it was good he apoligized, but can't do it yourself for calling him a pussy before you knew the facts. Well, John Long is the king and his posts were way more harsh, so I suppose if he is above reproach the rest you interweb tough guys are too.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 31, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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Sorry, the Jedi mind trick isn't working.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 31, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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Ron wrote: I have purged this from my system.
Go back to the toilet...you didn't do a very good job of it.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jul 31, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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Some comments have been made about the risk to others trying to repeat the route without the added bolts. I find that point to be rather weak. Isn't one of the primary values of ALL styles of climbing the assumption of risk, and its attendant consequences. If a person steps up to try such an ascent, and blows it and gets hurt, I don't see that as being the responsibility of the first ascentionist. That kind of attitude is harmful to the freedom we have as climbers to take the risks that we do.
You can debate the fine points of style infinitely, as this thread and countless others show. The real issue here is respect for the other guy. I think CW recognizes that and his offer to remove the bolts that he has added shows that he can disagree with TB's climb, but still show respect for TB's efforts.
Maybe there is something to be learned in that.
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