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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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I'm done with you, Ken, brave soul with the last name "M". You are a blockhead.
You must have wanted to be a Sherpa in a previous life. Troll, indeed.
Your (il)logic: all 3 climbers are lying. All witnesses are lying. Sherpa was cussed at which justifies violence, probably murder unless someone interceded. Frickin fool.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Right on (hic), Jim!
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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The opinion of probably the strongest high altitude climber alive:
http://urubko.blogspot.com/2013/05/khumbu-wars.html
Sorry his English is far from smooth.
Denis is not that tolerant as his Western European friends, and has been into fist fight with sherpas#@&%es before. The 'dangerous' slope is 35 degrees, with lots of caverns and snow patches. Reasonable skilled people do not use ropes there and the dander of falling ice or rock is null - it just does not fall.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jim, I'll try to set aside the fact that you're obnoxious. But, what is your argument? You're not making any sense.
You, along with many on this thread, obviously don't believe that a few Sherpa's might have gone nuts. It's just not possible, according to you.
But you are wrong. It happened and no amount of romantic harping about the poor Sherpa's is going to change it.
Grow up.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Oh man, Ron is staking his claim with the Sniveling Sherpa Apologist's!! What a team. Drinks for everyone!
Sherpa's can do no wrong because they live there....oh, I get it.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Reasonable skilled people do not use ropes there and the dander of falling ice or rock is null - it just does not fall.
Sherpa Mingma Dorje is killed on the Lhotse Face by falling ice
So, Vlani, you and your ignorant hero should climb back into your armchairs.
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abrams
Sport climber
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The sahibs had HD video gear. Very likely in the process of peddling it to the highest bidder for a reality show.
Video of Sherpa yelling, "No as#hole! You cannot step over my rope to your tent!" will be the money shot if it exists. Hope it does not. To horrible.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Wow what a bunch a lip flippers Quite Fun to read! Considering most of you have never even put on crampons .
The closest you all get to a big mountain is driving by Mount Shasta going to visit your aunt in Portland
That's right you are rock climbers , Specialists, With no real earned opinions for big mountains!
In other words simply Monday morning quarterbacking!
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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OK, Tami, I don't know Jim B. and he's probably a nice guy.
Maybe there's a rush to judgement on all sides. Things will sort themselves out as climbers return home. Jonathan Griffith's video should be illuminating, if he was filming at the time.
One thing for sure; there are too many people on the South Col route and bad things are bound to happen on occasion.
PS: stu, I was putting on crampons when you were putting on diapers.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Stewart said:
The closest you all get to a big mountain is driving by Mount Shasta going to visit your aunt in Portland
That's right you are rock climbers , Specialists, With no real earned opinions for big mountains!
In other words simply Monday morning quarterbacking!
Well played; that is a deft use of the “Greater Ranges” Ploy, as described by Tom Patey.
For this ploy some previous Himalayan experience is essential; it may involve a tourist weekend in Katmandu, a transcendental meditation with the Maharishi. Once the aura has formed, you can hardly go wrong. You can patrol the foot of Stanage with all the authority of an Everester. No one expects you to climb. It is enough that you retain a soft spot for your humble origins.
“This is all very different from the South Col!” you can remark crisply, as you watch bikini-clad girls swarming over the rock like chameleons. Any off-the-cuff comment of this nature goes down well, and gives them something to talk about after you have moved on. As I said before, nobody really expects a man who has survived the South Col to risk his neck on a paltry outcrop.
..."But let us keep our sense of proportion, and remember that British crags are not an end in themselves but a Springboard to the Greater Ranges. The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton! That is something we must all remember..."
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Sounds like a case of dealing with immigrants stealing your jobs. Maybe they need a Labour Union.
Nepal has loads of Maoists. I saw a huge demonstration of Maoist women when I was last there.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Patey's 'greater ranges ploy' ! +1
Just 2 kinds of people in the world who have worn crampons. Those that are dead and those who are still alive or something like that.
Rainier north east side above camp shurman, arrested the climber behind me on our rope of 3 as a crampon rolled off her boot. Not a big tug as she started skating down the slope but got my attention fast enough.
Cut 4 feet off the end of the rope. Yanked the core strands out and tied the f**k out of that old style crampon.
But it kept rolling off and you know who had to start chopping steps
some nice Everest pictures.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/everest/photo-gallery
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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One thing for sure; there are too many people on the South Col route and bad things are bound to happen on occasion.
On this, there is certainly no debate.
My buddy, who's summitted 3X, 1stN, 2,3S.....has made me quite nervous by heading up into this crazy zone.
Another buddy, whose up there now, and the lead guide for one of the big groups and one of the 4 cited for breaking up the mob scene, makes me unhappy by being in that crazy zone.
There is just no way that you can have that diverse volume of people up in that constrained area, without drama breaking out. And the potential for large disasters only increase with population size.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I can understand a climbing guide wanting to punch their ticket on Everest, as a career move. Reasonable, and important to business success, I'd imagine.
But spending year after year up there on the upper mountain seems to be an invitation to disaster.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Things much worse than getting punched happen up there.
Altitude makes you do funny things, and its different every time.
Like i said before its a pity the elite team was even on the yak route,
even if they pulled off an "alpine style" ascent, theres just too many
people around right now for it to be fair.(that means you cant touch any
fixed ropes or get any help from the crowds all around you.
Of course getting down is different, without o2 im sure youll
grab a cord going down the Hillary step!)
If you are that elite what the fruk are you doing there of all places!
They should be using there sponsorship dollars to go off piste!
and if theres not enough of an explorer in them to go off piste,
Perhaps a post-monsoon ascent of the south yak would be easier
in terms of crowding
and also being more fair to the alpine style.
By off piste i mean any route but the two yak routes where the guests go.
Perhaps the elite were acclimating for the sw face?
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orle
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
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Perhaps Stewart pulled a Patey, perhaps, but he DID post THIS photo, which should probably be in the header of this thread or sommat:
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Did they ignore the Sherpas safety or honor? I think the Sherpas safety and honor was 1000 other times and 1000 times more ignored and compromised during the Everest climbs. We all know cases when these brave men were sent to drag down some halfdead millionaire as#@&%e westerner from the mountain who got in that position because of their inabilities and the bad judgment of the commercial expedition bosses. And are you really sure that this was the first time that swear words were used at Sherpas and their mothers? It is a shame but I am quite sure that this happens on a daily basis in the camps. Still we do not see a mob with covered faces to search for their truth.
No, I think this is really the "bad apple" case. It is sad to say but nothing extraordinary happened on the mountain that day. Nothing which does not happen 1000 times in a season. A couple of hurt ego drove a lot of other companion crazy using his power and position. I think a disservice to the normal majority if we try to explain this situation with cultural differences.
I want to really thank kolos for his thought provoking contribution and his honesty in explaining the situation as it really is up there. To me this reinforces the idea that the Sherpas are frustrated (they are humans and not saints!) and Moro, Steck, and Griffith just happened to take the blunt of that frustration.
Even so, I thought all day about these comments and I now think it could be a combination of both maybe. The sirdar commands immense power over people's jobs and summit opportunities so I could believe that many of the Sherpas there were afraid to defy him. I could believe many covered their faces because they were ashamed to be in that group and did not wish to be identified for that reason.
One weakness I have observed in Sherpa culture is that they are reluctant to deal with someone who does not follow their values. Pacifism has its problems, and in the absence of laws, can flip over into violence sometimes. In Rolwaling many of us had trouble for years because of one bully yet the local lama always counseled patience and not calling the Nepalese police because Buddhism teaches forgiveness.
Eventually this bully accosted a trekking group manned by Khumbu Sherpas, demanding money for camping on communal property. When they refused, he overturned a large cauldron of soup on the ground just as it was ready to be served. At that point the Khumbu Sherpas gave him a good beating while the Rolwaling people stood around and smirked. The Khumbu people then told him if he ever left Rolwaling they would kill him the next time. He never left again but many Rolwaling people eventually did for various reasons, including getting away from him. In the end, he had a change of heart and became very religious and nice to everybody. However, some of his sons are still causing trouble and they have been completely ostracized by the Rolwaling community in Kathmandu where most live now. Of course it's much easier to deal with problem people in a city with police and journalists than it is an isolated mountain valley or the side of Everest
Clearly the Sherpas who seemed intent on bodily harm were bad apples, and many were probably coerced into participating, so the question is, what about the majority? Can a few bad apples really dictate to 90-95 other men? I'm still betting the majority wanted to scare the western climbers and probably chase them off the mountain until the ropes were fixed and things got out of hand.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Some accounts claim the violence at Camp 2 commenced when a westerner, not affiliated with Simone, lunged and entangled with one of the advancing Sherpa. Simone is said to have summoned the Sherpas to a dialogue and the clutching of the Sherpa by this particular individual was the "ignition point" in the fracas.
Also I wanted to comment on the minimization of the Lhotse Face difficulty. While not formidable to world class ice climbers and mountaineers, it's still a problematic and dangerous obstacle to success. Depending on whose list you read, seven to twelve climbers have been killed on this slope...beginning with Dorje Mingma of the Swiss 1952 expedition. The angle rises from 45 to 60 degrees and falling ice and avalanches are portentous menace. And climbers walking outside their tents at Camp 3 have slipped and fallen the entire slope to the bergshrund
...this isn't the serene slog between Paradise and Camp Muir
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Amber.C
climber
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Things much worse than getting punched happen up there.
Altitude makes you do funny things, and its different every time.
Like i said before its a pity the elite team was even on the yak route,
even if they pulled off an "alpine style" ascent, theres just too many
people around right now for it to be fair.(that means you cant touch any
fixed ropes or get any help from the crowds all around you.
Of course getting down is different, without o2 im sure youll
grab a cord going down the Hillary step!)
If you are that elite what the fruk are you doing there of all places!
They should be using there sponsorship dollars to go off piste!
and if theres not enough of an explorer in them to go off piste,
Perhaps a post-monsoon ascent of the south yak would be easier
in terms of crowding
and also being more fair to the alpine style.
By off piste i mean any route but the two yak routes where the guests go.
Perhaps the elite were acclimating for the sw face?
Not to quibble, Stewart, but I was under the impression that the three were either acclimatizing or their route broke off the yak route higher up. Camp 2 (and even Camp 3) is a long way below the summit.
But otherwise I don't see what difference it makes that they are elite. They have the same right to be there based on their permit, so their "eliteness" strikes me as irrelevant.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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You're correct they have the same rights to be there and also the same obligations. Part of the obligation of using the fixed ropes, ladders, and paths through the Khumbu icefall which they did multiple times, is to stay off the slopes where the Sherpas are fixing ropes. This they did not do. Instead they climbed ropeless beside them and then across them. And why? Because they were elite enough climbers to do that. They used their elite climbing status to inconvenience the Sherpas. That's why it matters.
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