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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
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Mouse, why you gotta bring Lorenzo da Ponte into this? He was good God-fearing man.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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Catching up, the carbon dating "dilemma"--Should we allow the Shroud to be examined? Or not? It's very easy to see why the Cards were disgruntled over the results. It helps disestablish the church because it undermines faith in the ressurection, which everyone knows is a conspiracy concocted by the brethren and sistern.
My first GF, Liz #1, worked all her life for an archemological firm in the Sacto area, and specialized in C-dates. I'd like to try to sound her out about her professional opinion. God willing, she may even speak to me!
Or should I not say that way here?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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Because "everybody does it"!!!
That's my understanding of how the phrase can be translated. Simple Opera Buffoonery, aka a "SOB story," can be potent satiric stuff, no? God-fearing or not.
"Just because you think all your friends gotta think that way does not mean you gotta exist like that. I'm gonna tell your father when you decide who He is. He had the first word, I'm sure He'll have the last one, too."
"You thinking what I'm thinking again, Ma?"
"You're going to buy me that new belt I love?"
Conversation with Mother Mary in a waking dream
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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in atheist afterlife you get to be a proton
actually, all your protons are recycled...
they will be to the end, and even then, they serve an important role in that end.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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haha, mouse--same territory for me, but different cast of characters. in retrospect, rather fortunately, my mentor during puberty was quite heterosexual--to the point where he "confessed" that he engaged in the chaste dating of nuns. he'd also mix me an old fashioned as i came of legal age, and i've retained a taste for them. cool guy, but i'm afraid the merry holy avalanche came crashing down on him in a different way.
the jesuits came later, in the form of three years at loyola university of chicago, where i received excellent education from lay professors, but found the priests to be rather out of it. the jesuit order has a dark side. your story seems spot on. you know about the black pope, right?
all your protons are recycled...
they will be to the end, and even then, they serve an important role
ed, you're taking sides there. in nature, nothing is important--it merely is what it is. and what is this "end" you speak of? a scientific apocalypse?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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For insight, we need more polling among and limited to atheists, evolutionists, naturalists, scientists, otherwise smart educated secular people. (Enough political polling, its quantity is downright ridiculous. Sorry Muslims and Christians, you don't count on this one.)
For instance, there is the claim inspired by the sciences: We are "matter grown to consciousness." I wonder what fraction of the aforementioned believe in this claim.
Of course I do, but I wonder just how small my minority is and how it's trending per year or decade esp now with the whole world linked in and online.
.....
Until we figure out the exact mechanism or mechanisms leading to consciousness (or sentience or intention or will) I am not at all prepared to say that the yellow jacket wasp I just dispatched in the kitchen window (and that inspired this post) didn't have it. In fact, if forced to place a bet, I'd bet this lowly stinging sensation did have consciousness (sentience, intention, the works).
Until science (or perhaps just as well, analytical bioengineering) of the future figures it out, I am more than happy thinking of consciousness as biomagic. How's that for atheist open-mindedness, lol!
Remember Arthur C. Clarke,
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
I think Clarke's insight here applies equally well to "any sufficiently advanced" biological function as well. Hence, bio-magic, with a bit of a wink.
.....
I thank the Gods of human imagination / personification (this week, esp the ancient Greek River Gods, Potamoi) everyday for my modern atheist outlook and lifestyle. :)
Tags: 1 "matter grown to consciousness" 2 "matter grown to sentience" 3 bio-magic (biomagic)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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Norton, why am I not surprised. Verily, you're one of the smart ones around here who values science and science edu!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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Tony, like your sheepish grin!
Yesterday afternoon, when The Reverend and I were cruising out Le Grand way on our own way to the Guadalupe Summit south of Bridgewater, north of Le Grand were three big-horned rams in a laffably large paddock for just three goats. "Looks pretty cushy, Jeff, but where's the rest of the family?"
Down the road, a good half-mile or so, on the other side of the road was a penned-up flock of the nannies, like a hundred maybe.
And the Rev said to me, he said, "Mousie, if one of those rams believed in God he'd ask for them to be moved at least a few hundred yards closer."
Alas, they are the goats of Matt. 25: 31> Cast into darkness. But with at least a shot at goat paradise. :)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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"matter grown to consciousness" Well, if Carl Sagan were alive, you could take it up with him. It's his phrase.
Maybe someone can refine it for the masses. -Dr. F
No refinement necessary, not for this ol boy.
Hits the nail right on the head, imo. Resonates perfectly with my understanding, attitude, feeling of things.
Different strokes for different folks, eh? Even amongst the "atheists."
I know, try this one on for size...
Consciousness grown from matter.
That's mine. I don't think Carl would mind. ;)
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Yeah, Pate posted this too last page or two, I think.
increasingly convinced... beyond religion altogether
The evolution of thought in a holy man, imagine that.
But then again, he's late to the show, we've been pushing for this on this very site for at least a couple of years now. (A couple of us anyhow.)
grounding ethics in religion no longer adequate
To include no more stonings? No longer adequate? Imagine that.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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Why should we be moral if we are just accidents descended from animals? We don't expect cat's and dogs, lions and tigers, etc., to be moral. Philosophers have been trying to explain morality without G_d for years. There is no answer or reason why we should be different to animals. But, in regards to the Dali Lama's statement, I agree that "religion" is not the answer. If you have read the four gospels, you would have come to the conclusion that JC also states this.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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Why should we be moral if we are just accidents descended from animals?
First off, I'll assume you're just a teenager more or less - perhaps on something of a character-building quest, say, and tasked to re-examine the basics - for asking such a self-evident question. (Better than assuming you're just a troll keen on wasting people's time.)
Because if you're not moral, if you're immoral, there's enough goodness in humanity - not to mention desire or lust for payback - to bring hell to your life right here on earth.
In this world, it pays to be moral, it pays to be cooperative, empathetic, good.
.....
"If you don't like the treatment, don't rob the banks."
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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I'm feeling a little atheistic; after readin these atheist confermations.
"Matter grown to consciousness"
Bear with me. Did the bee that stung you. Sting you. By instinct. and then go "ha ha i got u back !". OR. Did he, get scared and said to himself " I'll sting him and get him back!".
I read ur post and decided to write U back. And I did!
isn't THAT consciiousness grown to matter?
Jus Split'in Hairs
BB
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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Blue, why don't you pause for cause. For about three days. You're so tiresome. Or just take it to other threads.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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Bear with me. Did the bee that stung you. Sting you. By instinct. and then go "ha ha i got u back !". OR. Did he, get scared and said to himself " I'll sting him and get him back!".
I read ur post and decided to write U back. And I did!
oh my goodness!
why, that is just THE most elegant and well reasoned explanation of evolution ever!
Thank you so much!
And best of all, you personally have proved just have wonderfully deep is the depth of the Homo Sapien gene pool! Quite clever of you!
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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but as Feynman explains in that video clip, he is not looking for "absolutes" as there is no indication that such at thing exists, or that it could be something that is studied.
Best post/quote of this whole thread - Thanks Ed
Although ElCap's post runs a close second. Damn funny, Will.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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10-4 BIG SPLIT!
Man created religion. Most of the NT is telling U what's wrong with churches.
It's Great to attend one, if U can find some good in one. JC gave the example of what a church is about. The Lords Supper! And anybody can do that anywhere!
Jus Cheer'in
BB
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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for asking such a self evident question.
Huh?
If it is so self evident, why is it at the center of so many university philosophical discussions & here on ST? It is pretty clear to me that mans "morals" equate to what's best for him/self when it gets right down to the nitty gritty/survival of the fittest life here on earth. What can you expect? Open yer eyes (yer lost in a fog "junior"/fruity/a self deceptive fog i might add). Take a look at all the world powers, what's going on in the ME (which includes/pulled in Russia).
The basic question is, where does morality come from? Survival of the fittest...Knott! How about GUILT? That is a part of moral conscience.
Fruitcake - you have been spewing your fruity garbage for several (3-4) years here on various threads. Talk about blind faith!
EDIT:
I'll assume your just a teenager, more or less. I'll take that as a compliment! ;)
Unfortunately, impudent was included in the characteristical definition that accompanied my first & so far, lasting impressions of HFCS.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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The sun rises in the east and never anywhere else.
Absolutely since the beginning .......
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