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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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It seems like everyone is having their own personal argument on several different topics:
1. There are not many climbers that can onsight 5.11
2. The 5.11 benchmark is a laughable relic from 1974
3. The value of onsight climbing is a laughable relic from 1974
4. The real measure of a climber is the willingness to risk injury/death
5. Sport climbing sux
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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theres a BUNCH of 10/11 "leaders" that ended up in the hospital or worse this year that MIGHT disagree with you ElCap. Two were on my routes locally alone.
What does some people cratering off moderate trad routes have to do with a claim that 11+ all-around guy could keep up with a 13/14 sport climber?
No amount of "mental steel" is going to enable your 11+ guy to suddenly be able to pull double digit boulder problems in the middle of a sport pitch. Conversely, being WAY stronger than necessary will allow your big number sport guy to hang around and figure things out, climb things less than optimally, run it out over what feels moderate to them, etc.
Let's not forget that Sharma went up and lead every pitch on the Rostrum with the .13 Excellent Adventure finish as his 3rd trad climb ever IIRC.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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So the arguably the best sport climber in the world was able to lead a challenging trad route with an impressive finish.
Who is the best trad climber (Honnold, Potter, Caldwell????) what do they lead on sport?
but the thread is about HOW RARE A ALL AROUND 5.11 CLIMBER IS!!!!
How rare are climbers like Sharma, Ondra, Caldwell, Potter, Steck, and Honnold?
Answer: Just as rare as BACHAR
As for me I am an all around 5.8+ trad climber who sometimes is able to lead 5.10 trad clean onsight.
My first 3 months sport climbing on limestone (first day, first route onsight 5.11a) consistently able to lead 5.11b and I am 40 years old. Had never sport climbed and had never climbed limestone. Currently training for 5.12 roofs that are at the local crag for me. Have several first ascent multi-pitch routes ready to lead (climbers here dont have the cash to put up for bolts or for slinging huecos).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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So the part I am not getting here is if there are no 5.11 trad climbers or even as many of you claim no 5.10 trad climbers then who is climbing all these desert towers? who is running up the VMC direct direct every time I get up to Cannon? we had to wait in line to get on Duet Direct. Very often in Corth Conway I see folks Free climbing The Prow. heck there has even been a line on Intimidation a few times..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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You guys keep saying it's in the one percent yet I keep running into those one percenters so it makes me think the math is fuzzy. It gets real interesting here in the winter. You think you won't have to wait in line for grade 5 and harder ice but guess again... some dude usually shows up and solos your route while you are racking up...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And he's what percentage of everyone who owns a pair of ice axes and crampons in New England?
A lot of folks here would have a tough time in intro Statistics I'm thinking.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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day after Christmass last year was my first day on the ice as we had a really bad start to the season. We did the Black dike off the couch. The party behind us did Fafnir off the couch and on the hike down we ran into a party that had just finished Omega off the couch. No well known hardmen in the bunch, just your average north eastern ice climbers...
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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You sound like an avid fan of sport climbing, like me. But where we differ is that I would never tell "Young Charles" (16, and cruises 5.14) at my gym that he should jump right up on Cream with a cam or two because it's only 5.11a after all. You might as well just run the poor kid over with your hybrid.
hilarious.
makes perfect sense.
Climbing ain't just numbers, 'cept when your number's up.
It seems that hard-won wisdom to some here equates to: if you are super strong bouldering or sport climbing then you could be a solid trad leader in a short time. Well, whoop-dee-freakin-do, how many times can you repeat the obvious? Hubers did it--heck, course setters in my local gym did Freerider, with almost no "trad" experience. (But did these guys say, "ah, 5.11 trad is a piece of cake"? Not eggzactly.)
I guess my last comment on this thread--great job, Largo, must be having quite a chuckle--is that in my experience, it's easier to go wrong on a trad route than a sport route. This frequently results in the climber turning a 5.11 into a 5.13, effort-wise and can be a disaster. There are all kinds of stories on ST (Grossman coming out of Midterm comes to mind) to this effect. I can't remember ever botching a 5.11 sport route in the way that a trad 5.11 can veer from an ideal ascent.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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1. There are not many climbers that can onsight 5.11
5.11 sport is entry level shite. We all know that. Even for me, and I'm 1,000 years old. 5.11 trad covers a wide array of things and chances are in areas like Josh and the Black Canyon, you'll have to work some to dick a grade that is trivial on the clip-and-go circuit.
2. The 5.11 benchmark is a laughable relic from 1974
For sport climbing, absolutely. But I defy you to find one person - sport climber or otherwise - on the face of the earth, who can hike up to Basket Case, on Basket Dome (a ferocious, multi-pitch off width), lead the whole thing in half a day and declare the route an absolute joke - a laughable relic.
3. The value of onsight climbing is a laughable relic from 1974
True, if your aspirations extend no higher than Smith Rocks or Rifle. But if you ever want to speed climb a big wall, or climb the legendary routes in the Alps or Patagonia etc., on-sight ability remains a vital skill.
4. The real measure of a climber is the willingness to risk injury/death
Not true in my opinion. And neither is the opposite true - that is, someone afraid to brook any risk at all is unlikely to measure up as a "real" climber, though he might do fine on the grid bolted dink around cliff on the side of the road - which is pretty much where you'll find me these days.
5. Sport climbing sux
I love it, and am not ashamed to say so. I used to run the rope like a champ but these days - not so much.
JL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Since at least one offshoot topic seems to be sport vs. trad, I just want express (to all you people out there) a sentiment that I have felt for many years now. I am so blown away and impressed by what I see folks doing at the gym, that my default prediction would be that a huge percentage of these climbers would be just crushing sport and trad routes alike. "Outdoor" 5.11 should seem trivial. I've always been the type of climber who leads very close to my top (not very high) bouldering ability. If I just had that talent, I'd put it to good use.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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For sport climbing, absolutely. But I defy you to find one person - sport climber or otherwise - on the face of the earth, who can hike up to Basket Case, on Basket Dome (a ferocious, multi-pitch off width), lead the whole thing in half a day and declare the route an absolute joke - a laughable relic.
Stevie Haston, if he was in a pissy mood.
Dave MacLeod and James McHaffie could do the same but they would never sh#t on a route just to boost their own egos.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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But if you ever want to speed climb a big wall, or climb the legendary routes in the Alps or Patagonia etc., on-sight ability remains a vital skill.
The myths continue. Onsighting and speed have nothing to do with each other. Onsighting is the slowest form of climbing most will do. Speed climbing = aid climbing. Onsights of the free routes on El Cap, for example, haven't happened yet. Freeing them under a certain time mark - daylight or 24 hr - is generally a highly paced and logistical affair - and generally rehearsed. A strong free climber with good gear placement and "wall" skills will indeed have the potential to move much faster when they start pulling on gear, but it's not a given unless they've practiced climbing that way. The guys that are among the best at climbing this way aren’t necessarily among the best free nor aid climbers.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Fix it or F*#k it...bitchin' don't do sh#t.
Except make ya a whiner......
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Degaine
climber
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Largo,
With all due respect, I find your definition of "well-rounded 5.11 climber" to be extremely narrow. Why is that?
Without a real study, all of this is just anecdotal evidence anyway, isn't it?
Again, I know of at least 10 or 12 people who climb 5.11 trad regularly, and who are also solid ice climbers, mountaineers (climbing hard alpine mixed stuff), and even (gasp!) sport climb. Maybe they are part of the non-celebrity elite and they just don't know it.
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Degaine
climber
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The OP's claim is that the 5.11 trad climber was ubiquitous in the 1970s, and that in 2012 finding the 5.11 trad climber is a once in a blue moon occurrence.
My comment is that the 5.11 trad climber today is not a rare occurrence.
But 15,000 people in a niche sport is quite a few, and not the equivalent of a rare bird sighting.
But hey, if it makes everyone over 50 feel good that climbers were such hardmen/hardwomen back in their day, it's no skin off my back, this is all just mental masturbation anyway.
P.S. My guess is that the beer was colder in the 1970s as well and that a greater percentage of climbers in the 1970s walked to school in the snow barefoot than today.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Ron, the OP said not a thing about "percentages". He pasted a quote and said he agreed. The relevant part of the quote:
"the rarest thing in the entire climbing world is the true 5.11 trad leader"
Which is laughable.
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steve shea
climber
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Ice climbing, mixed and big alpine routes do not count. You cannot introduce that stuff into this discussion. You will not be taken seriously. It is not climbing, El Capupyourass says so. Also, Tradman you need glasses. I'm from Franconia. Spent two months there this summer and was in the notch daily. DAILY, and saw one party on VMC dir. Cannon is a rubble heap that ice there is beginner stuff. HEH HEH
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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This thread is becoming a "tempest in a teapot."
Time for everyone to GO climbing.
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steve shea
climber
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Yeah, John you really stirred the pot with this one. It's been fun. SS
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