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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 30, 2012 - 05:00am PT
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"Homosexuality is absolutely wrong, as are many other things that mankind sinfully partakes in. To think otherwise then you haven't read The Good Book from cover to cover, and have artificially cherry-picked and used G-D's word in error."
oh fer crying out loud...
I've read all kinds of books, talk about cherry picking-dude the fact that YOU cherry-picked 'THE GOOD BOOK' out of the millions of books don't mean squat.
Believe what you want, but pulling that holier than thou sh#t is ludicrous and says more about you than anything else.
I'll give you that humankind does all kinds of f*#ked up things, you can call some of them sinful if you want, but your sins don't mean they're everyone's sins. You're just another cherry-picker yourself klimmer.
cheers
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:01am PT
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I am no longer Mormon. I don't believe ill get to rule my own planet when I die like they tought us.
I’m sorry, dear Skamoto, the Mormon Church does not teach that you or any other Mormon gets a planet to rule over. A few Mormons believe this notion…but it’s definitely not approved LDS doctrine.
…nor has it ever been.
This theory of mortals going on to rule over their own planets was the formulation of Orson Pratt, an astronomy lecturer, who held church office in the mid 1800’s. Some in the church liked the assumption but it was rejected as doctrine. Pratt was excommunicated in 1842 for causing contentions within the church but was reconciled and readmitted later.
His supposition caught the fancy of a few LDS writers like Jos. Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie but never became dogma, canon or a central axiom of LDS precepts.
This dogma appears nowhere in the Bible, Book of Mormon or other authoritative articulations of LDS doctrine.
Periodically, the LDS church re-affirms that this "ruling over planets" concept is just opinion and conjecture of a few... and not to be taught from the pulpit.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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i don't think the OP is going to stand up and testify, brothers and sisters. too bad, but he's kind of a shy guy that way. this thread has spawned an interesting gallery of parallel vibrations.
i liked seamstress's account of why she's a catholic. in a church full of moral cowards, you occasionally find some moral courage like that.
i got some feedback on my catholic upbringing when we were invited to attend a jewish family seder. the prayers and sentiments were all too familiar: we are so insignificant, we have such shortcomings, only god is terrific and ain't it great to be riding his coattails. i sat through it like the whore in church i've become, happy for the aftermath, like at any christian church, when people loosen their neckties and dive into fellowshipping.
"i learned to appreciate other religions," said our host, finally breaking out the mogen david, "when i learned to enjoy my own religion."
"enjoyment is probably the last word i would ever associate with religion"--came out of me like a knee jerk.
"let me guess," he said. "you were raised catholic."
we both smiled.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tony, thanks for the tip on Seamstress's post, man. How did I miss that? And I liked your anecdote. Ain't it the way?
Seamstress told us she's a member of a very small parish. She is lucky, in my estimation. In the larger parishes like Merced's St. Patrick's, it is a daunting task to confront all the activities. It seems to me there is too much happening for anyone to feel noticed, or should I rephrase that to feel appreciated. This is out and out selfishness on my part for feeling this way. I am sure I have read, in an epistle, likely, we ought not think of ourselves too highly in respect to our congregating brothers and sisters. Cursed Catholic guilt trip? No, just good advice from the Book.
Another thing which struck a chord was the emphasis in her parish on actively doing things for the disadvantaged. I am not aware that we have much going on here in St. Pat's that directly impacts the poor. I may be mistaken, but it seems that the Catholic Charities office on Main has many more people lined up now than five years back.
There seems to be a lot of emphasis on socializing (all or most such activities being for "worthy causes"--but it is up to the individual to decide where his money goes, after all) in the way of dances and golfing and taking trips with others to Rome or the Holy Land and cursillos and any number of youth activities. None of these things that I could go to are affordable for me on a fixed income, anyway. Add to that the stigma of a divorce, and it is tough to be a member of this church I grew up in. There are plenty like me, I know.
I've tried to be a member of worth, and I suppose it could be done, but I am really quite adjusted, so I don't think it is worth it to pursue "acceptance through works." I suppose I'm more of a loner, happy enough to know that my Buddy Jesus is nice enough to forgive my foolish drifting. He's nice enough to forgive me my not accepting Him wholeheartedly, I expect, as a Savior. This statement sounds like I am making Pascal's wager, I'll bet.
I am happy to be nice to others as much as possible, though I know I have a mean, sarcastic, cynical tongue in my head, as I have shown on occasion.
For this I am grateful: I can make the world a better place by keeping a check on my tongue (read James). Although I'd really like to lay into the sanctimonious bastards who caused our parish such a problem when they pesecuted out pastor (no names here) for checking out a homosexual website. He's a good man, one who would take time to pass the time at Starbucks and cheer you up. He, at least, was doing his job by accepting that I was just an ordinary Joe, making no judgements, or so I think.
"So don't criticize what you can't understand," keeps flashing through my head. Verse for the day from the epistle of Dylan to the Foolippians.
Have a good day, Tony, Seamstress, and everyone.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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We have a very proud (in general) church here in America! God does not tell the non-believers to turn from their wicked ways, he tells the church.
I agree. Ironically enough, I am currently leading a Bible study on Amos, which has a great deal to say to today's church, and much less to say to today's unbelievers.
Unfortunately, I've been guilty of that same pride on this thread. I got into the debate about what Jesus said in response to what I saw to be arrogant proclamation of the words -- and meaning of the words -- of Christ, and then proceeded to do it myself in my responses, particularly to Craig (Dr. F.). For that, I apologize.
I too often forget my job -- to tell the good news about Jesus -- and try to do the Holy Spirit's job -- to convict and convert. Mea culpa.
John
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skamoto
Mountain climber
coalinga ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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Hey Jennie that's good to know but that's what our preacher tought to us. Nothing about it felt right that's why my family left. It honestly felt like a cult. But I have no problems with Mormons I still have a lot of Mormon friends. That one single church was just not for me.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Interesting, squishy. I, for one, have trouble differentiating what is and isn't "secular." This is, I think, an issue for any Christian, and certainly for any Christian climber.
If we are to present our bodies (meaning our lives) as living sacrifices, then what part is "secular" and what part is "sacred?" I maintain that to a Christian, there should be no distinction. Our whole lives should be "sacred," including our climbing.
I know I've said this before, but there has been a heresy particularly prevalent among my fellow Evangelicals that I call utilitarianism -- meaning that anything we do that does not overtly and directly further the Kingdom is a sinful waste of time. I don't want to repeat in detail why I find this untrue, but utilitarianism relegates creative activity to sin (and much of climbing is creative, old-timers bemoaning sport climbing to the contrary notwithstanding). This also explains how we tolerate so much mediocrity in "Christian" art and music.
John
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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In order to lighten up the hostilities I thought this might help. A by-line in the local paper:
Man arrested after telling hospital patients, staff he is Jesus
Seems the man isn't safe anywhere.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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good for a chuckle, yes, especially when you remember--
jesus arrested for claiming he was ...
... and just exactly, what was it he claimed he was?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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I can see how some folks spray coffee on their keyboards^^:-)
That's hilarious!
Paging Mr.Klimmer...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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flossing as such was punishable by murdering everyone in the town and selling your daughters to slavery
says so in the Bible
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
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Curious,
are there any people on this thread who identify with Christianity (that is, they call themselves Christian) but don't accept the traditional theistic claim that the historical Jesus was God, God-Son of God? - who believe the "Jesus Christ is God" doctrine is to be taken metaphorically or mythically, not literally?
If so, do you ever assert it publicly?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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Only while shanking....RJ
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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The Son of God and the Son of Man are two names he gave for himself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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So do you care to give an identifiable stance on the "Jesus is God" doctrine? Is it yea or nay for you?
Like many in politics, many in religion don't want to provide an identifiable stance on many a specific issue. They prefer just to ride on through to wherever (perhaps on their charm or charisma) and avoid the issue. But of course this just maintains the status quo - which is often a state of confusion, misunderstanding of others and such.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Russ Walling -- Hypothetically he might hate fags even like God
God does not hate anybody. He loves everybody!
But, He hates sin. Sin separates us from God.
You have heard the story ... God so loved the world that He...! Basically He came & paid the penalty for sin once & for all. Became the blood sacrifice. Broke the curse attached to it ... death (eternal).
Anyway, back to 'hate vs love' & sin, etc., we are all sinners. For instance, bitterness, hate, anger, jealousy, strife, envy, idolatry, greed, selfishness, disrespect ... that prollie covers my average day at the office/work! lol
Anyway, the love part. You don't have to believe what i have to say, that we are all either lost, or where lost at one time, but, His love for the lost is; Like the love a mother has for her only child that is lost.
Imagine a mother who dearly loved her only child (a young child) & it didn't return home one day. Except, God's love for the lost (individual) exceeds that in ways that are humanly impossible to define. I could say a thousand times what a human mothers grief, hurt, pain, sorrow, love or whatever is, but, there is no limit to what pain can be constituted as "in the spirit", particularly God's Spirit. For instance, as human beings, we can only take so much pain, can have so much physical pain inflicted upon us until it physically kills us. But, in the spiritual realm, there is no "physical body" & therefore no limit to pain in that regard. Same goes for the emotional aspects of pain, sorrow, grief, etc.!
Believe me when I say that God loves everybody, including the lost. But it is a severely grieving sort of love. I am sure, like the mother, there are other aspects to that love, but, it is (just like her) over shadowed by an intense longing, an overwhelming grief, for her lost child.
So, I repeat, God certainly doesn't hate anyone...on the contrary, he deeply loves everyone. He does hate the sin that separates us from Him though!!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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are there any people on this thread who identify with Christianity (that is, they call themselves Christian) but don't accept the traditional theistic claim that the historical Jesus was God, God-Son of God? - who believe the "Jesus Christ is God" doctrine is to be taken metaphorically or mythically, not literally?
Trying to process this; but it is difficult. I wonder why you ask? Are you trying to dissuade someone from believing there is a God? Why bother? I am not going to try to convince you of the existence because you have chosen not to believe in his existence. I know this because I was very much a member of that school of thought.
I don't care to debate the issue; however I will attempt to clear up some of your confusion. It is likely that you will retort with another question or statement to disqualify mine or my belief; which is the point I am addressing.
No one could consider themselves to be a Christian if they didn't believe that Jesus was who he said he was, the son of God; which he stated that being God's son means he is a part of God.
It is a faith or belief system. There is plenty in the Bible that is confusing, sometimes conflicting, sometimes surreal. There probably is no way to understand it all. I personally try to focus on what I can understand. For instance I rarely read anything in the book of Revelations. A man was writing about his dreams. I accept it as some sort of prophecy; but it is very confusing, so I don't dwell on it.
Another example: I am a science teacher (or was). I believe in evolution; but I don' believe it is accidental. As a Christian I believe that God created all. That doesn't make me have tunnel vision and block out science.
You can't argue Faith. You can no more disprove that there is a God or that Jesus was not the son of God than I can prove there is a God and Jesus is who he claimed to be.
People should leave it at that.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
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Yes, isn't the Christian life wonderful!
The best part is when you are so full of yourself you get to speak for, and interpret for the Guy in the Sky.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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Norton...Getting to speak for the guy in the sky is on a rotational basis...Your turn is coming...Just wait...RJ
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