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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 15, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Cute remarks about Special Kay aside, Stewart, "the Woz" , is rite.
Nope, he's wrong. Anders needed his ass kicked. Several of us had been trying to do it in a gentle, friendly fashion, and it hadn't worked.
But I think Bruce's boil-over got the message through.
In his post, Stewart said,
Some of the postings in support of this proposal imply
As far as I can tell, no one here is posting in support of the proposal. A few people have said they can see some positives in it, but no one has come out and said they are fully in support.
What Bruce was upset about, was that Anders was repeatedly implying that there was something crooked going on, but refusing to provide any evidence. Neither Bruce, nor Hamish, nor I, nor anyone else that I've seen posting here ever disagreed with the idea that their might be something crooked, or bad, or evil going on. But before we sign on with the "Evil Developers Will Destroy The Park" club, we'd like to see some evidence.
That was why Bruce got pissed. And if an apology is in order, it should be coming from Anders, not Bruce.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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Has Anders upset some long held tradition of neutrality? Sitting on the fence seems kind of lame.
Are you for this deal or against it? Study time is up...
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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The word "compromise" just doesn't seem to be in some people's vocabulary.
Early on here someone was yarning on about how the Park is strictly for the enjoyment of all Canadians and tourists alike. Well that's exactly what will be in each gondola capsule... people. The tram won't be carrying livestock, oil, or fuel rods. Just people. The same people slated to enjoy the Park. What, exactly, is so terrible about that?
The more time passes, the more I'm convinced some people would like the Park changed from Park (for people to enjoy) to Preserve.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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A compromise requires two distinct sides...
... fence sitting doesn't further compromise, though cheerleaders can motivate the players.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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DING DONG PEOPLE :
My question is will it only serve the tourons and f*#k the backcountry users over for access in the process .
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:14am PT
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No but I am overdone on the chossy limestone here today. Got a senior citizens discount pass with young Riley from superpower topos. He is a good guy. Solid climber too
Edit 2.0: All limestone is garbage!
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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Ya, that's it, that's what those evil developers' whole plan is.... to screw over the backcountry users. I can't believe I missed that all this time.
Jesus Crisis, you've got to stick to the limestone Buddy.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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Hamish I am in favour of gondolas giving backcountry users access to the alpine and there is a risk that may not happen unless those terms and conditions are expressly written into the deal with no constraints due to liability concerns.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:45am PT
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2:09 in the a.m.? Holy Mac, Jim, that's gotta make monday morning feel rough. You're right, Anders has asked some good questions and that's great. It just seems that he also often answers them as well. And his answers are pretty negative. I realize he's captaining the NIMPP (not in my park please) ship but he's a good lawyer and a good writer and sometimes it's difficult to tell the fact from the fiction.
It's too bad they didn't have super-topo-time-eraser back in the mid-sixties when the Garibaldi Lift company got rolling with the creekside Gondola. I'm betting there were some die hard skiers who strongly opposed everything to do with that. Now look at the scene up there; when it snowed six feet in the last week of March I don't recall seeing too many unhappy people. And they're all breathing fresh air and getting their heartrate up.
Not my scene as I'd rather be ripping through the forest on my 29" mtn bike, but I've seen the smiles and they're genuine. And they come from all over the world.
Why are some people so unwilling to share?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:29am PT
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There are some real negatives. That some harsh words about the use of innuendo instead of facts in the argument against the gondola were spoken doesn't mean there are no facts.
F'rinstance: That the government will be required to complete the proj if the developer fails/bails shouldn't be looked at as a free pass. If the govt steps in, who do you think will be footing the bill? Is the business plan available for public view? If it is, it should be examined carefully. If it isn't, then pressure needs to be applied to bring it in to the open.
Another potential negative is the waste management/pollution issue. In order to ensure that enough people ride the thing to make it pay, there's going to have to be something at the top other than a nice view. Building a restaurant and a theater for dancing bears or whatever creates potential for significant environmental damage. Without some kind of enforceable guarantee that this will not happen, the permit should be withheld.
The slippery-slope issue of future Park development applications being easier because this one was allowed needs a look as well. I still believe that it is worth considering a requirement that any land removed from a park be compensated with an equal or greater amount of land added.
I'm sure there are other potential negatives, and I hope this thread has finally evolved to the point where they can be considered seriously. "It seems to me that developers appear to be evil and perhaps may..." is not a valid argument. And dismissing arguments in favor of the project by simply saying "That's irrelevant because Park Land Is Sacred" is both unhelpful and insulting.
So let the real debate begin...
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:38am PT
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Oh man, we're at 521 entries and just commencing with the debate now? I'd better get my butt down to the grocery store and stock up on coffee.
My favorite is coffee with Special Kay.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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Oh man, we're at 521 entries and just commencing with the debate now?
Hamish, you're still new here, and probably don't appreciate that taking only 500 posts to get some kind of rational debate started on a contentious subject is an unbelievably short time. Go look at the big political thread. 17,000 posts in and they're still at the "I'm right and you're wrong." "No, you're wrong and I'm right." "F*#k you" "No, f*#k you" stage. And that's the third iteration of the thread. Total post count on it now is over 60,000.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:12am PT
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O M G :(
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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hey Anders, I don't quite understand the legality of some of the documents you refer to above, perhaps you can help educate me... in particular:
0930756 has three, possibly five, years to complete construction, and if it doesn't, the District can step in and finish the project using a security deposit.
seems to imply that "the District" will step in and finish the project, spending the security deposit. Presumably "the District" is some combination of "legislative" and "executive" bodies, constituted in a manner I'm not familiar with, especially vis-a-vis separation of powers.
my question is, how can the "executive" branch commit funds that are controlled by the "legislative" branch, and apparently not subject to the affirmation of the public, who ultimately provide the financing (through their taxes) to engage in a business enterprise which a commercial entity initiates?
it would sound like a political system which picks up obligations it did not initiate or plan for...
anyway, it is a mystery to me.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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it would sound like a political system which picks up obligations it did not initiate or plan for...
anyway, it is a mystery to me.
No need for foolishness about "legislative branch" and "executive branch," because in Canada, the Queen's word is the law.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Bruce k- thank you for making this thread worth reading. Your humor is infectious!
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 16, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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5) Tourons look at squish and think it looks cool. go have dinner in squish.
They pass up the finest Squamish dining available, White spot, and head for dinner at a world class resort.
Actually, that Japanese place in the mall (forget the name) is excellent. And I recall a pretty good Italian place there, too. Most stuff in Whistler is overpriced.
[sorry for the thread drift - now back to your regularly scheduled back-biting]
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 16, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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Just so we're all on the same page, the million dollar views will be of Howe Sound and the mountains. I hate to be master-of-the-obvious but I believe we need to cover all the bases, as some readers probably still believe the gondola goes (potentially) up the Chief.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 16, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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Seems like you guys can waffle between the views are awesome to who cares about the gondola the views/experience is already wrecked with highways and transmission lines...
I am not in the tourism industry but, and as Hamish has pointed out in previous posts the Chief is ram packed these days...so is Shannon Falls so is Murrin...so where are the dollars then...
A gondola to attract the Whistler/Vancouver crowd to stay in Squamish...do you think that crowd is eating sushi in a Squamish mall...
Its a nice dream though.
Grouse is private property they can do whatever they want like close trails and imply rules on those who cross their property...
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SuperTopo on the Web
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We already have a road and more than likely it will now be gated, Alpine doesnt open till 10am-This is a Neg!
Let us know!