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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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Enhance
I watched Blade Runner recently, don't remember seeing all those folks in it. Super Editor's cut?
Do microscopes, telescopes, MRI's, X-Rays etc. help us see something new or just help us find what we already think is there?
Was Z-man out West recently, endurance runner Micah True was found dead, might have been wearing a hoodie.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL
I believe it was a group decision.
Don't we have to have a full investigation before statements like this can be made? Likewise, we probably need to have an investigation of whether the investigators mentioned above are competant to perform such an investigation.
....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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the Fool blurted:
Wait, didn't Obama have an unarmed man shot????? OBL
damn right President Obama ordered the SEALS to kill that bastard who killed 3000 Americans.
Unlike Republican Bush who gave up even trying to find Bin Laden.
And get used to it, President Obama will kill anyone he considers a threat to the security of the United States.
Little pussies Romney and Santorum would probably "pray" rather than kill em.
Grow up Fattrad
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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fattrad
I'm not sure if Zimmerman is guilty or innocent at this point. Guilty of what?
Do you think he's NOT guilty of chasing down a young man in the dark?
NOT guilty of accosting him?
NOT guilty of ignoring the dispatcher's advice (legally not a "command") to back off?
Did Zimmerman have ANY reason to believe that Trayvon had committed a crime?
OR that Trayvon was going to assault him before Zimmerman started his pursuit?
What LEGAL obligation was Trayvon under to halt when Zimmerman started to pursue him?
Zimmerman certainly created the confrontation. What exactly transpired during the confrontation is yet to be known. It's also largely irrelevant.
The problems with this sort of law in this situation should now be obvious.
You have untrained people, who think they are protecting their community, on the street with weapons. They are also NOT in the LEO chain of command. Ergo there is no LEO chain of responsibility.
He's not in uniform, has no badge.
The very definition of Loose Cannon. Or we could substitute the term "vigilante".
Did the dispatcher have the legal authority to call Zimmerman back? I don't think so. If he did, Zimmerman then failed to follow the directions of an officer.
Now think about it from Trayvon's point of view. Young man walking down a residential street at night. Minding his own business. Thinking of whatever he wanted to do when he got back to the house. Suddenly there's an older man chasing him down the street, yelling at him. So Trayvon has to make a split second choice, run like hell or turn and confront his pursuer. Again we don't know yet exactly what happened. Whether he had tried to flee and Zimmerman caught up with him, or if he turned towards Zimmerman, Trayvon had every reason to believe he was going to be attacked. He therefore had EVERY right to defend himself.
That's the sad, yet inevitable ending.
That's the root of the problem with this cockamaney law. And why more episodes like this are inevitable.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE
Precisely......but the other way around........it's entirely possible, even likely, Trayvon was whacking this nut so he could get away. And he had EVERY right to.
I've been assaulted on campus at night....by two (not one) college red-shirted football players (they were wearing their letter jackets).
Because I had long hair and a beard and it was the 60's.
They had been following me and then yelled at me, I turned around, one of them slugged me and I knocked him flat on his arse. I had EVERY right. Or I had every right to run like hell if I'd suspected he was going to slug me. By the time his buddy picked him up off the ground I was running like the wind. That's the way it's supposed to end when no one's carrying a firearm.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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THAT CHANGES INTO SELP-DEFENSE
Nope, they were both standing their ground. Who kills first wins.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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It's self defense when the pursued has to defend himself against a pursuer. Even more so when then pursuer has no legal reason for the pursuit.
So many what if's and how comes and why's at this point No fattrad.
Please read my first few statements. These are KNOWN facts. They are known now and they were known to the Sanford PD at the time.
Trayvon had committed no crime (and none had been reported that evening)
Trayvon was unarmed.
He was pursued by Zimmerman.
The dispatcher had told Zimmerman not to pursue.
They ended up in an altercation.
Zimmerman shot Trayvon dead.
Zimmerman had no official LEO capacity.
The only ifs concern the final face-off before Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
Oh,
And the Sanford Police didn't arrest Zimmerman even though they KNEW he had killed Trayvon; and they let Trayvon lie in the morgue for 3 days.
What you did or didn't do as a trained and deputized LEO is irrelevant.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Zimmerman did have the right to walk up to Martin, and say something. Even if he had to follow Martin for a while to make contact.
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.
I still don't know why Zimmerman hasn't been charged with something.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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I have faith in your Riley! :)
They need to use Zimmerman as an example.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Chaz
largely I agree with you.
You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida
Except your final conclusion "even if you are in Florida". Apparently you can, and in 19 other states.
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Jorroh
climber
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Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I see the problem is that my understanding of the stand your ground law is that it was written so that the average citizen that is being attacked by a thug and in fear for his or her life can use deadly force to protect themselves vs. having to flea.
As to Zimmerman, and others who for whatever reason are essentially looking for trouble, I don't think the law should apply. I consider a large percentage of police officers being insuficiently trained to be carying firearms. Security guards, neighborhood watch etc have IMHO no business carying firearms. Tazers and pepper spray with training, ok, but they should not have firearms.
To me the entire sad event really needs to be broken up and addressed in several ways.
First and foremost a family is grieving the sensless loss of their child, cut down in the prime of life. I can't imagine the grief they are going through, and turning it into a national media and political event is disgusting.
The second issue is whether or not there is any basis to claims of this being racially motivated. Unfortunatley I don't see how this issue can be accurately assessed and dealt with as it has blown up before the facts have been adressed.
Finally the stand your ground law, which I don't see getting a fair shake due to the racial overtones that have overwelmed supporting a grieving family and being able to investigate the case in an unbiased way to see whether or not Mr. Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jorroh nails it:
Lets face it, this is the sort of stuff that happens when you let an organization like the NRA write legislation.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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You know all those h-angels at Altamont were acting in self-defense too. F*ckin' coon had a gun didn't he? The neighborhood bullies rough up another black guy and he pulls his weapon out (in self-defense) and he ends up with a knife through his chest.
I looked at the Meredith Hunter entry on Wikipedia. Comparing him to Trevon Martin is quite a stretch...
(excerpt)
Fueled by LSD and large amounts of amphetamines, the crowd had also become antagonistic and unpredictable, attacking each other, the Angels, and the performers. By the time the Rolling Stones took stage in the early evening, the mood had taken a decidedly ugly turn as numerous fights began to erupt between Angels and crowd members and within the crowd itself. Projectiles started being thrown at the stage. The Angels retaliated by hurling back full cans of beer from their stockpile and swinging sawed-off weighted pool cues and motorcycle chains to drive the crowd farther back from the stage.
Lead singer Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones (who had already been punched by a concertgoer within seconds of emerging from his helicopter[4]) was visibly intimidated by the unruly situation, urging everyone to "Just be cool down in the front there, don't push around." Within a minute of starting their third song, "Sympathy for the Devil", a fight erupted in the front of the crowd, at the foot of the stage. After a lengthy pause and another appeal for calm, the band restarted "Sympathy" and continued their set with less incident until the start of "Under My Thumb". At this point, two of the Hell's Angels got into a scuffle with Hunter when he attempted to get onstage with other fans. One of the Hell's Angels grabbed Hunter's head, punched him, and chased him back into the crowd.
After a few seconds Hunter angrily returned to the front of the stage where, according to Gimme Shelter producer Porter Bibb, Hunter's girlfriend Patty Bredahoff found him and tearfully begged him to calm down and move farther back in the crowd with her. By her report he was enraged, irrational and "so high he could barely walk".[5] Rock Scully, who could see the audience clearly from the top of a truck by the stage, noticed Hunter clearly in the crowd, remembering, that “I saw what he was looking at, that he was crazy, he was on drugs, and that he had murderous intent. There was no doubt in my mind that he intended to do terrible harm to Mick or somebody in the Rolling Stones, or somebody on that stage."[6]
At this point, footage from the documentary shows Hunter (seen in the film in a lime-green suit) drawing a long-barreled black revolver from his jacket and pointing it in the air.[7] The film clearly shows a bright orange flash at the end of the pistol in one frame. Porter Bibb says it is impossible to determine whether the flash is a gunshot, a reflection, or something else.[8] The film then shows Hells Angel Alan Passaro, armed with a knife, running at Hunter from the side, parrying the gun with his left hand and stabbing him with his right. The footage was shot by Eric Saarinen who was on stage taking pictures of the crowd. Saarinen was unaware of having caught the incident on film. This was discovered more than a week later when rushes were screened in the New York offices of the Maysles Brothers.
In the film sequence, lasting about two seconds, a six-foot opening in the crowd appears, leaving Patty Bredahoff in the center. Hunter enters the opening from the left, his hand rises and the silhouette of a revolver is clearly seen against Bredahoff's bright crocheted dress. Passaro is seen entering from the right and delivering two stabs as he pushes Hunter off screen. The opening closes around Bredahoff. Passaro is reported to have stabbed Hunter five times in the upper back. Witnesses also reported Hunter was stomped on by several Hells Angels while he was on the ground. The gun was recovered and turned over to police. Hunter's autopsy later confirmed his girlfriend's report that he did have methamphetamine in his bloodstream at the time of his death.
Aftermath
Passaro was arrested and charged with murder for Meredith's death, but was acquitted on the grounds of self-defense after the jury viewed the footage from the concert showing Hunter drawing the revolver and pointing it in the air."
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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A wacko going off. No racial overtones. What's your point? Is there a controversial law involved?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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4000 black young men died violently last year.
The poverty pimps
nary a peep.
Didn't lead to a politically or financially productive narrative.
Same for a dead Christian.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Why doesn't the gun lobby make a big deal about this? Try to make it easier to own/carry guns.
After all, if some were packin in that classroom, the shooter might have thought twice?
Makes about as much sense as your contrived argument.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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race, controversial law, upsurge of justifiable homocide incidents.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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chaz: You have the legal right to walk up to Mike Tyson and call him an ass-hole, too. But when Tyson jacks your jaw, you can't shoot him and plead "stand your ground", even if you are in Florida.
The way Florida courts have been interpreting this law, you could shoot Tyson.
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