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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 16, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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Lawyers are never gonna let BD employees/board members individually address product defect claims in online forums.
Is that why oakm suddenly stopped posting after a flurry of posts staunchly defending BD while pointing out supposed flawed products by Petzl?
Or was it because he simply couldn't admit he was a BD employee when questioned?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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I have no intention of getting involved in this and frankly, do not care how it turns out. However, I did want to call your attention to three points.
Point 1:Assuming that we are more interested in the Sabre's data, take a look at the first graph on the BD website of Sabre Cyle testing for CrMo versus SS.
Recognize that the sample population is very small. 4 tests for SS and 3 for CrMo. These data points should have error bars on them. I was too lazy to graph them but here is how the data should "approximately" read (note that I had to interpolate the points off of the graph).
SS Minimum Cycles to Failure:
8,750 +/- 3047
SS Max Cycles to Failure:
17500 +/- 3047
CrMo Minimum Cycles to Failure:
10938 +/- 2454
CrMo Max Cycles to Failure:
17188 +/- 2454.
The Point? From a statistical perspective, there is little to no difference in how these materials behaved in the VERY few tests that were conducted between these materials. In fact, there is a GREATER variability in the SS sample population than there is with the CrMo despite having one more data point which does not bode well for the SS Data Set.
Point #2:
SS had 4 tests, CrMo only three. Is this because of Point #1? In other words, did BD recently perform all of these tests or did they perform the Worst test on SS first and then did BD perform just enough tests to write up their paper in order to support their conclusion....The CORRECT way to perform these types of tests is to NOT have a conclusion, perform the tests, then decipher the data which would then provide the Discussion of Results and hence a data driven conclusion. This is opposed to a Corporate driven solution. If I were to devise a test plan for materials, I would ALWAYS try and use the same sample population so as not to have any preconceived ideas.
Point #3:
From the BD Website
On a ten-mile walk a crampon could experience 10,000 bending cycles.
If their cyclic tests are representative of the stresses during walking, then you can all expect to get about 12 Miles out of SS and 15 out of CrMo based upon the Average of the data sets from the graph reference in Point #1. Seems pretty weak to me. On the otherhand, I have no idea what other crampons would do in these tests.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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The Point? From a statistical perspective, there is little to no difference in how these materials behaved in the VERY few tests that were conducted between these materials
Doesn't anyone read?
None of their lab test was done in a cold/freezing environment.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Yes Werner. I did read that and that is also an issue. But if the data were produced under the right environmental conditions there is still too few of data points to draw any kind of conclusions from.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Wait... I thought the sample size was much bigger. If they only tested 3 or 4 pairs then the results are meaningless.
At the very least, esp with a complete new material, I'd want to test samples from each supplier of raw product or different sheets/lot #'s. (assuming there's more than one)
It doesn't make sense not to test a couple hundred in various environmental conditions. All the money is in the R&D and tooling. Raw material cost is nothing.
It's not like we're asking them to crash 100 cars....
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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fear,
I was "assuming" that they only tested a few samples based upon their own data. And see Point #2 above. If they tested many samples, then why would the SS show 4 data points and the CrMo only show 3 points. Makes no sense.
And you are absolutely corrent in that a rigorous QA program would identify a key parameter of the raw material and test that on occaision so as not to get burned by one of your sub-suppliers.
edit:
By the way Werner. With regards to temperature, my professional guess is that the data is so spread out and there are so few points that temperature would only play a small part. Also, lower temperatures (at those where only the psychotic might climb ice, say -40F) would lead to failure of the crampons in fewer cycles. (We can only generaliize as we do not have all of the material specifics.
See Point #3 above. In extreme cold it is likely that your crampons are good for fewer than mileage specified.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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It occurred to me that I did not summarize some of the info from the BD Graph in my previous post.
Sabre Pro SS
Average Cycles to failure: 12,312 +/- 3,047
Sabre Pro CrMo
Average Cycles to failure: 15,079 +/- 2454
In summary, the CrMo fails after completing 23% more cycles than the SS.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
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It's not like we're asking them to crash 100 cars....
hmmmm,....
Just gimme a moment on that one,..
Agreed.
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Peter Metcalf Black Diamond
climber
SLC, UT
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Apr 16, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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A Word from Black Diamond Equipment and Peter Metcalf
In the mid 1970s, I was attempting an early ascent of the Black Ice on Cannon Cliff and, while leading the crux nearly 30 feet out from my last protection, the pick of my ice tool broke off. Extricating myself from that situation was not something I will ever forget. In the early 1980s, when making the first alpine ascent of the South Face of Mount Hunter with Pete Athans and Glenn Randall, Glenn’s crampon broke in the midst of a very challenging lead, just below the summit plateau at dusk and in a raging early May blizzard. The result of this breakage and dealing with it in the storm was that Glenn lost three fingers to frostbite. Completing that climb and getting him down the west ridge of Mount Hunter after nearly two weeks of climbing with but a week’s rations will forever make me appreciate Glenn’s will to survive and upbeat demeanor. In 1989 Chouinard Equipment was forced to file for Chapter Eleven bankruptcy protection in the face of several failure-to-warn lawsuits.
All three of those events—combined with a life forged from climbing—helped define both who I am and the way that Black Diamond Equipment is run and managed.
The thread on this site has raised three questions:
a. Are BD’s stainless steel Sabretooth crampons safe?
b. Does Black Diamond put profits before individuals or do we operate with integrity?
c. Does anyone here at BD have other issues, above and beyond answering questions "a" and "b"?
I am going to make only one post on this subject—not because I don’t enjoy engaging with BD’s customers, but because my purpose is to answer the questions above in the most frank and forthright manner I can and to do it once. You are all free to read, respond, or react as you so determine.
So let's get on with it.
1. “Are BD’s stainless steel Sabretooth crampons safe?” and/or “Do we stand behind them 100%?”
It is clear that Kolin's QC Lab post in the BD Journal this past Friday (http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons);, with its reams of testing data and analysis, was seen as an obfuscation by some and a marketing ploy by others.
So lets be clear: "Do we stand behind these crampons?" The answer is an unequivocal YES. These are the best performing, best selling, most rigorously tested, and most used Sabretooths in our history. Period. They are a result of years of design, development, and testing by the best engineers in the business.
I have led and managed this company since 1982 when Yvon hired me to take over for him, hence I have 30 years of design and manufacturing experience at Chouinard/Black Diamond by which to make this conclusive statement from. These crampons are 100% manufactured within a hundred yards of my desk at BD in Salt Lake City, which is where they are designed, developed, tested and constantly analyzed and checked. Crampons are part of what we do daily in Salt Lake City. Based upon our decades of daily engineering, designing and manufacturing of crampons, studying returns, analyzing our competitors crampons, performing side-by-side testing at room temperatures and in our commercial freezer, we ABSOLUTELY believe that our stainless steel Sabretooths crampons are the best crampons in their class. Period.
As noted by some on this site, BD has dozens and dozens of employees who actively climb ice, are mixed climbing enthusiasts, and do big alpine routes around the world (obviously that includes Chris Thomas, Roger Strong, Jack Tackle, Bill Belcourt, Doug Heinrich, KP, etc. etc.), and most of us use and love the Sabretooth crampon. In addition, we have dozens and dozens of the world's highest performing and most committed alpinists on our athlete team who use and love this crampon and have had nothing but accolades to say about it after days, weeks or months of climbing on them. That list of BD athletes includes, to name but a few: Marko Prezelj, Barry Blanchard, Will Gadd, Rolo Garibotti, Colin Haley, Kevin Mahoney, Kelly Cordes, Doug Chabot, Conrad Anker, Kyle Dempster, Hayden Kennedy, Simon Anthamatten, and "Jumbo" Yokoyama. Non-BD athletes have also used Sabretooths on significant climbs the world over, most recently was Doug Shepherd (check the new route he and John Frieh put up here: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12s/newswire-dickey-ruth-gorge-frieh-shepherd);. Most of the BD Europe guide team have made the Sabretooths their crampon of choice. NOT ONE of these globally respected, super-active alpinists have reported a single breakage issue with our stainless steel Sabretooths.
BD employs literally dozens of engineers whose lives are forged from climbing and our stainless steel Sabertooths have had the most rigorous lab and field testing of any crampon we have ever made. If you think that any other company devotes anything close to the level of lab and field testing of products that BD does, think again. We have employees who have worked at many of our competitors so I speak from fact, not conjecture. Yes, we have reams and reams of additional lab and field data that give us this unequivocal confidence in the Sabretooth, but based upon the reaction that the reams of data already summarized generated, sharing 3x more data is clearly not going to convince those who don't want to believe it or understand it. Also we have never attempted to hide non-trade secret data, and instead go to great lengths to share it. Whether you prefer a particular BD product or prefer that of one of our competitors, you can be confident that no one tests their equipment more rigorously and no one goes to greater lengths to share that data.
Question #2: “Does BD have Integrity” and/or “Do we put profits before the safety of our customers?”
As shared, I have firsthand experience with the potential life changing or life-ending consequences of gear that fails. The same is true with many of my peers at Black Diamond. Besides climbing actively myself, the majority of our hundreds of employees climb, and many climb very actively and at very high levels. In addition, many of our best friends, partners and even children now climb actively and boldly, as does our tight community of mountain athletes. I can assure you that neither I nor my BD peers want to put their lives and the lives of their best friends, loved ones or community of friends at risk because of gear issues. This is not an academic issue, this is our lives and we average a death and a memorial service roughly once a year with employees, former employees or close friends who have perished in the mountains because of rock fall, avalanches, or freak circumstances. Comforting a wife, parent, child, friend or loved one is one of the toughest responsibilities any of us will do in our lifetimes. If a lifetime of climbing has taught us anything, it is just how precious life is.
So I am looking all of you straight in the eyes when I say "No, we at BD do not put ourselves, loved ones, family, or dear friends in harm’s way in a pursuit for profits" Look, we have done half a dozen voluntary and expensive recalls in our history because we were concerned about the safety of our product. We are not inhibited or gutless to do so, if that is the right thing to do. Our actions speak for themselves.
Question 3: “Does anyone here have other issues motivating them outside of being sure that BD gear is as safe as possible?”
The first two answers have addressed Black Diamond's motivation, commitment and integrity to building great product. This third question is perhaps the toughest to address because it is filled with opinion, sensational negativity and personal attack. To be honest I am reticent to respond but will do so just this once - and anchor my thoughts in facts so that others reading this post may understand motivating factors at play. I cannot speak for others or know resolutely people's motivations. The intent here is to be transparent and not engage further name-calling.
I have had personal and professional relationships with some of the detractors on this thread. Specifically, Scott Cosgrove (COZ) was a sub rep/tech-rep for BD in the 1990s. Our relationship was solid and positive. When a BD sales rep position opened up for Southern California in 1998, Cosgrove committed himself to getting the job and was one of three finalists but was not ultimately offered the position. This appears to have coincided with the beginning of Coz’s sporadic and ongoing criticism of BD regardless of the issue.
Ron Olevsky (Piton Ron) and I go back to living in Camp 4 at the same time in the 1970's and having shared time and some climbing partners in the likes of Charlie Fowler, among others. The relationship between us was always respectful until a few years ago when Ron requested that BD shut down a small climbing dealer in southern Utah that he was in a personal dispute with. Though we had real empathy for Ron's situation, after some investigation it was clear that this was a personal matter that BD could not become embroiled in. Ron made it clear that this was an unacceptable conclusion by us.
I sincerely regret that the positive long-term relationships that BD (and I) had with these two individuals did not have the strength to survive the personal issues that could not be reconciled between us, and would welcome reasonable, direct, private conversation with Scott or Ron in an effort to move forward. To this point, we understand that some will take issue with Black Diamond products specifically and even take the next step of harboring personal bad feelings or even vendettas. While we do not like this fact, we accept it as reality.
My goal in responding to this thread is to directly refute loose assumptions and rumors and challenge any naysayer to prove their opinion with facts. BD stands behind the Sabretooth and all our products 100%. This does not mean that gear will never fail in the field and as we all know, climbing in all forms is inherently dangerous making any failure potentially perilous. Black Diamond will continue to seek solutions and innovate. We will test our gear tirelessly. We will never take our relations with climbers for granted and strive to continually earn their trust and welcome the opportunity to engage in reasonable discourse.
Black Diamond stainless steel Sabretooths have a level of engineering acumen, climber insight, manufacturing competency, values, and commitment to the sport and life of climbing that we are exceedingly proud of. We thank all of you who have reciprocated with your support and we regret but must accept that there are a small number who believe otherwise.
Thanks for reading and most sincerely,
Peter Metcalf
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Stand up reply... Period...
When a board member of a company gets that specific, it is not a joking matter.
Everybody: YOU choose your gear and how it is used. Your life depends on it.
Saberthooths.... decide for yourself...
Glenn’s crampon broke in the midst of a very challenging lead, just below the summit plateau at dusk and in a raging early May blizzard. The result of this breakage and dealing with it in the storm was that Glenn lost three fingers to frostbite.
You should have done like most others on STopo... Walk 30 feet over to the car and go home.... :-)
Jay Renneberg
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
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Hah!
It worked! You finally showed (although dialogue is a two way street, not a one shot deal).
Though we had real empathy for Ron's situation
As in making a promise and then welching after you backed off threatening to move OR.
It wouldn't have looked too good if in the middle of that political play I had come forward with photos of the swastikas the dealer posted 40' from my kitchen window and then defended as his "first constitutional right".
When I called you the following year to report further unethical behavior you once again showed lack of moral courage, but by then you weren't in the media spotlight
would welcome reasonable, direct, private conversation with Scott or Ron
Well I don't know about Scott but you then refused to take my call.
You (and your guys) are great spin doctors, and no, my beef is not about crampons, but it still boils down to accountability and responsibility.
You outright lied to me on the phone (I challenge you to defy that), and then sold out half your people.
Shame on you!
If it takes Snaggletooths to expose you then so be it.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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Ron,
That is some real personal anger. Bummer you're carrying that....
The good news is that it does not relate to the thread title:
Serious Flaws with BD Stainless Sabertooth crampons?
Hope you can find peace with your troubles.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
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Thanks for the response Peter M...... Really pleased and surprised that you did given the posts that have been written on this topic.
Erik
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Question #3 (and Answer #3) are not germane in any way
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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The number of posts to this thread seems to be shrinking.... Someone is deleting posts!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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My guess would be oakm?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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I just deleted one of mine from a few minutes ago. On second thought and knowing a tiny bit about Coz's story makes me nervious about the timing.
Nice to get a response from the CEO @ BD. Still digesting the validity what he had to say.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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peter, i appreciate the post.
and i think more test data would be swell.
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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That's the bomb?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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Coz,
"the small chance of an accident" is a long way from the comments you have made on harnesses and other BD products.
I'll ask you once again. Please describe in DETAIL the specific safety concerns that you have. Can you document or describe or cite ANY injuries that have resulted from your specific safety concerns? If you cannot describe them how about adding some pictures?
You are losing all of your creditability and I'm having a hard time believing any of your comments relating to safety concerns at this point.
Please respond.
Erik "the faceless BD troll"
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