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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
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Like usually, this 911 thread has become a parade of the morons with Rox and Klimmer leading the way.
What next? are you going to call me a sheep? or maybe tell me to wake up?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 30, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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Arrrrgggh!! Don't draw me into this again!!
"no possibility." And in less than the space of a paragraph the poster went from not possible to 'easier.'
Dingus, I guess the part of the single paragraph that you left out was "cellphone technology has improved since ..."
Not that *that* would make a difference in the context or meaning ;-)
But heck, you gotta admit, the video from the OP is pretty darn cool!
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
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Re: cell phones.
I'm guessing one of the popular conspiracy theories falls apart if passengers made phone calls from one or all of the planes. Thus, evidence of phone calls being impossible must be presented to prop up one (or several?) theories. And what, there were no phone calls made at all (e.g. the families and phone operators are IN on it too), or, what, there were 50 government agents in a phone bank room making calls to the families of people who supposedly died in these planes (and the government actually, what, kidnapped the planes and killed all these people as a coverup)?
I liked the X-Files too, but this is ridiculous.
I also need to go on a hiatus and get back to work!!!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 30, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
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cloe, have you stopped ignoring the molten steel flowing out of the WTC towers yet?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
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I don't think you understand the definition of "molten", or the definition of "steel" (not metal). Again, very, very few sources (like, 2?) saying they saw this (no experts either) like weeks? later, and the photos I saw? It isn't molten. Sorry.
Second, I think people really don't understand why and how those fires could be so hot for so long as to make metal glow red hot, but hell, if you were going to store something really hot, how would you do it? Perhaps with a lot of insulation? Hard to beat several stories of concrete...
Again, the explanation(s) and rebuttals by the standard sources are, quite frankly, more than adequate from an engineering viewpoint.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
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Cellphone recievers are far stronger than the transmitters
Um at the tower you are wrong. At the phone itself, perhaps but not by more than a few dB.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
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So let's see... the existence of "molten steel" proves that there must have been explosives present, right...
So... the conspiracy theory states that a bunch of gov't agents went in and wired up the two towers with so much explosives that when an airplane hit the building in just the exactly correct spot, it blew up, and somehow, not a single person of the thousands working inside noticed this activity?
(airplane flown by suicidal gov't agents, or was there no airplane?)
You find this more plausible then:
The twin towers, because of their unusual size, type, and age (year of construction) were actually built with less fire safety than was in the code at the time they were built. Many, many shortcuts. For example, all of the stairways** and thus, main structural columns, are in the center of the building. This happens to be perfect for allowing an airplane to enter the side of the building, then stopping it dead in the center, so that all the fuel could explode inside. Furthermore, it turns out some of the main steel columns had no fireproofing - NONE - which is why the steel melted so fast. In fact, structural engineers (that I know personally) tell me that *any* hot fire inside those buildings would've, most likely, brought it down (vertically, with gravity, like normal). No need for an airplane or explosion at all.
Nobody realized the extent of this, of course - it was unfathomable and nobody was thinking about it - certainly not the terrorists. In short, they happened to pick a particularly vulnerable target... they got "lucky".
** it might be elevators, my memory is fuzzy, but either way, the structural columns are in the middle AND I recall there being major problems with stairways too - in the wrong places and far too narrow to accommodate an evacuation of a building that size.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 30, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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Again, very, very few sources (like, 2?) saying they saw this (no experts either) like weeks?
cloe, this is quite wrong.
First, there is video readily available on the internet that shows red hot metal flowing out of the WTC towers before they fell. Then Michale Moore's film shows several pictures of red hot steel at the WTC site. There are several eye witness reports of seeing metal flowing.
You are ignoring these sources. Bzzzzzt.
And on your last quoted piece:
Furthermore, it turns out some of the main steel columns had no fireproofing - NONE - which is why the steel melted so fast.
Funny, above you had a link to a blog where it stated that the fires could not have been hot enough to melt steel. So, what's it going to be? More cherry picking?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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red hot steel is not molten
aluminum siding is not steel.
Hang on, I'll post a picture of some molten steel and a cliff...
wait for it......
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 30, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
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Very nice, thanks.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
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The aviation fuel burned off rapidly (approx. 15 minutes or so). Survivors came to the massive holes after the jets crashed into the WTC towers after the fuel burned off and peered out looking for help. The fires were not that great, nor very hot as indicated by the thick black smoke. Firefighters were able to get past the impact zones in the towers and said they were more than likely able to knock down the remaining fires. This came on radio and it is available to listen too. Then the towers fell.
Office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel, nor do office furniture fires burn for months producing pools of molten steel at the bottom of the towers.
Thermite or Thermate does though, and the chemical fingerprint of Thermite/Thermate was indeed found within the dust of the collapsed WTC towers. This is without dispute. Samples were saved and with electron microprobe analysis it was identified. Then it was also ignited proving it is what it is. See all of Dr. Steven Jones et al. studies that are published, and the images, and the videos.
Without a doubt the eye-witnesses saw what they saw. We have a plethora of visual evidence in still image and video of molten steel, along with the eye-wtiness testimonies to that fact.
Not to even mention and once again go into all the eye-witness testiomony to multiple explosives on multiple floors and in the basements of both towers.
You can not explain all this evidence away with the magical ignorant wave of your hand.
9/11: South Tower molten metal stabilization by JKeogh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbzdO0EPOGg&feature=related
Molten metal WTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p6UuGE0plk&feature=related
9/11: Molten Metal at Ground Zero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdRA09pztM
9/11 - Ground Zero Molten Metal Confirmed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-XA0Rv1Ng8&feature=related
9 11 Blueprint molten metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-J60B4kOq0&feature=related
9/11 Scientist Proves The Molten Metal With The Thermal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FHeGVEaNBk&feature=related
Thermite Scientifically Confirmed in 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy1oPmuZZ98&NR=1
Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
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The fires were not that great, nor very hot as indicated by the thick black smoke. Firefighters were able to get past the impact zones in the towers and said they were more than likely able to knock down the remaining fires. This came on radio and it is available to listen too. Then the towers fell.
Office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel, nor do office furniture fires burn for months producing pools of molten steel at the bottom of the towers.
Thermite or Thermate does though,
So, the fire wasn't that great or that hot (because there was smoke!), but ... but .... there was that VIDEO PROVING the those fires were SO HOT they were melting steel BEFORE the collapse. It's on all the Truther websites!. But... but... wait... which one of those TWO contradictory conspiracy theories do you believe, Klimmer?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
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Right, office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel? Why then, is fireproofing mandatory around steel columns? Ok, you win, how could a measly office fire melt steel?
Oh, maybe if you pour a few gazillion gallons of jet fuel you might be able to...gasp... *weaken* steel to the point of collapse. Doesn't need to melt! I guess that's why modern steel building are *required* to have fireproofing ... ya know, to prevent the steel from losing strength when it gets hot during a measly office fire!
But wait, that pile of office furniture and old textbooks in my backyard didn't melt any steel? See, can't be, wasn't hot. Well, you're right about that, at least.. there was no "molten steel" in the pile!
But you say you SAW some RED HOT STUFF?! Amazing! I see that in my fireplace! Imagine, you make a pile of a few gazillion tons and have it smolder for months under the heat from the jet fuel fire and the collapse energy and the insulation of all the crap on top, and some RED HOT STUFF gets pulled out. Whodathunk? Nobody... well, except anyone who's ever see, like, a campfire. Or a woodstove.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
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Cleo,
No one is saying aviation fuel melted the steel. No one who cares about the truth is saying office furniture melted steel.
So what can melt steel? What was it that they found in the dust? Bingo.
They are saying thermite/thermate/nano-superthermate sure enough did, and this would also explain why the flowing steel, pooling steel, and steel remaining molten for a month or more occurred in the basement areas as witnessed by many who were tasked with the clean-up.
You are also forgetting the Madrid, Spain raging fire within a steel beam building being constructed that burned for something like 24 hrs. or more. No collapse. No molten steel. That fire raged very hot and long. had all the oxygen it needed. The building was still standing.
You do know buildings are designed for worst case scenarios. Redundancy. The insulation is for that safety margin and you know it.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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No Klimmer, molten steel witnessed by two people. Two dubious sources.
One. Two.
That's it. The other 25,000 people who helped clean up didn't see it. Not on video, or in pictures either.
More people have seen aliens flying over Oakland.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
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Cleo,
Stop with the attacks.
Watch the videos and all the testimony that is provided. You are being purposefully ignorant. Lots of testimony, images, and videos exist of the molten steel and the cooled remains of the pools of formally molten steel.
They even have satellite imagery showing the hot spots within both towers that lasted for a month or more and right there is where they found the pools of molten steel as well elsewhere.
Dr. Steven Jones explains it simply:
Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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I have watched the videos.
Not. Molten. Steel.
Weakened, very hot, ductile steel, yes. Red Hot Other Crap, yes.
Yes. Hot. For. Months.
Just like coal seams stay hot for dozens of years. Without the secret new DARPA SuperThermite.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Molten Steel!!!
And... less OT!
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