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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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Breakfast, lunch, and dinner of champions!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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this is exactly what fdr did and is exactly why unemployment was still in the upper 20s in 1938 BS again. Unemployment was never above about 22%
Here's US unemployment in the period: the pink is the Depression, starting in 1929.
FDR took office in 1933 with approx 22% unemployment, the highest ever. It came down to about 12% at the start of WWII, all during FDR's administration and BEFORE WWII affected the economy. At the time FDR died, unemployment was about 3%, largely thanks to the massive government spending during the war. All money that went into people's pockets one way or the other.
Unemployment through 2009:
Curious isn't it? Peak unemployment since Reagan was when Clinton took office after 12 years of Repub Presidents. Decreased until the year Shrub took office.
Unrelated to this argument but scary:
Mean duration of US unemployment, in weeks.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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No, but clearly you tooled corniss chopper, and gave him a few too many night sticks to the head.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Speaks for itself
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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If Buffett wants his fellow billionaires to pay more, have at it. The rates he recommends in his opinion piece won't raise all that much revenue -- and will probably lower it overall, given his recommendation of a payroll tax cut, which isn't necessarily bad. They also differ greatly from those Obama and the Democrats in Congress say they want to impose.
This is mostly symoblism, i.e., "see, we billionaires (and millionaires) share your pain." It's not a serious attempt to raise revenue.
I would note, however, that even Buffett agrees that job one isn't higher taxes, it's lower entitlement spending.
John
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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Buffett clearly believes that both raised/more equitable taxes and lower spending are necessary. Any bets on whether he's in favour of a single-payer health care system, and cuts to military spending?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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High traverse,
Why don't you color-code your chart to show the Congress who voted for the spending and taxation rates in your chart? Your failure to do that also speaks for itself.
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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High Traverse,
Facts are stupid things.
At least according to the senile hero of the neo-conservative movement.
Facts are not important. They have no meaning. Forget all the lasting works of the WPA. What's important is to repeat the lie about filling in the ditch until it becomes important.
Forget that we've been gutting regulations and lowering taxes since Reagan's day, and that the result has been a loss of jobs, recession and misery.
What's important is that we keep repeating that if you lower taxes there will be more jobs. Repeat the lie enough and it will become true.
Welcome to the fantasy world of the neo-con.
this is nothing new.
The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.[
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Why don't you color-code your chart to show the Congress who voted for the spending and taxation rates in your chart? Your failure to do that also speaks for itself.
Now, John, you know very well that the president is as important to the budget as congress. Unless congress has the numbers to over ride a veto, they are beholden to the president, also.\
Not that both parties haen't gotten us into this mess.
In a way, the GOP is better, at least they come right out in the open and tell you they're going to f*#k you over.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
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John
wow, you actually got the implied part of the graphs, which I didn't state. When the President and Congress work together, the GDP can be managed. Debt decreased under Democratic and Republican presidents until the political climate became polarized or until Reagan's Supply Side Economics, or both.
Clinton had both houses of Congress in his first term, the debt started coming down and then he went along with several Repub Congress actions in his second term including welfare reform and the debt continued to decrease. Shrub's great rise in debt is largely due to his wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and tax reductions. We're now paying the bill. And I didn't make the graphs. Feel fee to contribute your own.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
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Tax collections skyrocketed during the dot. com option/trading boom of 1996 - 1999. Many people were wiped out, let's hope that doesn't happen again.
Part I: Bingo, high tax collections resulted in decreasing gov't debt.
Part II: Bingo again: The high tax collections didn't cause the bubble, if anything, according to supply side economic theory, high taxes should have diminished the bubble. It was over optimistic investment in high tech and real estate, WITH THE TAX RATES FIGURED IN. Much like the latest bust was over optimistic about financial instruments and real estate (not to mention a really nasty dose of outright deceit and fraud).
It will happen again and again. It's part of the Capitalist cycle. Greed-excitement-absurd optimism-bust-greed..........
ah...but I regress, I am convinced that Greed is Good. An expert told me so.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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My last Perot Chart moment of the day: Highest and lowest tax rates compared to public debt
fattrad's tax rate (presumably) as a ratio to bluey's (again presumably) has gone from about 4:1 in 1960 to about 3:1 now.
Note that as the highest tax rates have continually declined relative to the lowest, debt has risen. Lowering the highest tax rates has NOT reduced the debt.
Make your own arguments from that fact.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 15, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
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1st, I can't believe that the democratically controlled congress and president extended the Bush/Obama tax cuts for the rich. They should have allowed them to expire. Yet the treasury has a program wherein they are asking for donations, and I don't see Buffet voluntary stepping up to the plate, he wants it to be mandatory.
I suspect that if Buffet was presented with the idea that millionaires should not be able live off of dividends, especially stock dividends wherein nothing is really created, and pay the 15% max capitol gains tax, he would start squealing like a pig.
Oh, the uber democrat, Howard Schultz, is talking about not giving any money to democrats, and asking other cEOS to not donate to campaigns, until they resolve the budget issues. It's that important to him.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-15/starbucks-schultz-urges-fellow-ceos-to-boycott-campaign-giving.html
You think he would just give money to people campaigning who are committed to fixing this huge problem. Tea party members for instance.
He says: "Schultz Urges Fellow CEOs to Boycott Campaign
“I am asking that all of us forego political contributions until the Congress and the President return to Washington and deliver a fiscally disciplined long-term debt and deficit plan to the American people,” "
.....and it's dated today.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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"It will happen again and again. It's part of the Capitalist cycle. Greed-excitement-absurd optimism-bust-greed.........."
This is a prime example of the sort of pessimism that infects the left. Note here the premise that making money is ipso facto "greed".Prosperity and economic growth is likewise suspect because it is based upon the acquisition of wealth,which is always to be considered morally suspect.
So true, Donald. We know for a fact that there has NEVER been a boom and bust cycle in the capitalist system. NEVER! Tell it like it is, bro!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 16, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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Thompson
If you'd been paying attention, you'd have perceived my sarcastic reference to fattrad, our resident, self proclaimed Capitalist and Stalwart Defender of the Absolutely Free Market. Many times he's said "Greed is Good"
fattrad on August 9 for example:
Greed, for want of a better word, is good. Gordon Gekko http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1379328&msg=1575918#msg1575918
Instead of calling names, present some facts to support your claims. The graphs I posted are all from reputable sources. Of course you're free to argue (with facts) that those sources are disreputable.
Nowhere have I claimed that "making money is ipso-facto greed". I've run my own business for 14 years, ipso-facto I'm really a Capitalist. I know all about paying corporate income taxes.
"reductionist" conservatives have been claiming, without offering evidence for their claims, that raising effective tax rates on the higher tax brackets by closing loopholes and reducing special tax treatments won't decrease the debt. The historical data doesn't support that argument.
The republicans REFUSE to even discuss the effective tax rates on the higher brackets, even with Obama's offer of 4:1 ratio of budget cuts to taxes. Even with Boehner trying to work out a deal.
Asked in the debate this week if any of the Iowa straw poll candidates would accept a 10:1 ratio of budget cuts to revenue increases, they unanimously raised their hands NO.
Senator Tom Coburn (Republican) on the final debt ceiling deal
"It does nothing to address the real drivers of our debt," said Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma, explaining his decision to vote against the bill. "It eliminates no program, consolidates no duplicative programs, cuts no tax earmarks and reforms no entitlement program." (underlined by me)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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present some facts to support your claims.
Har-de-har-har!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 16, 2011 - 04:15am PT
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"from each according to his ability to each according to his need" sounds good, but it ignores human nature with its sloth and selfishness. "From each according to his industry to each according to his greed" is how forced income redistribution seems to work in practice, leading to the old East German motto: "we pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay us."
Buffett, for all his headline-grabbing, is at least proposing to raise his own taxes. I wonder how many people on this forum are proposing to raise their own taxes. If there are any, I wonder if any of those are seeking nothing more from government in return for those higher rates. If any are, please speak up!
John
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Jorroh
climber
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Aug 16, 2011 - 05:11am PT
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I do tons of driving John, and I'd like to see higher gas taxes.
I would also like to see a total tax burden that is at least bordering on progressive. The current system is so regressive that its killing demand.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 09:05am PT
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"From each according to his industry to a few according to his greed"
Capitalism in a nutshell!
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