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o-man
Trad climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
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This note is from a friend that is in Japan at the moment I thought I would pass it along.
"The hotel is empty. The only sound Japanese news broadcasters in hardhats waving diagrams of nuclear plants. No trains out of here. I'm in a very bad Twilight Zone episode."
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 14, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
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klimmer said,
I know what I'm talking about and you know it. Why the heck did I take all those classes/PD with General Atomic over the years?
this from the guy who believes that there is an alien mother ship on the moon....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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klimmer said,
I know what I'm talking about and you know it. Why the heck did I take all those classes/PD with General Atomic over the years?
this from the guy who believes that there is an alien mother ship on the moon....
Hawkeye,
Why the ad hominem attack? Why change the subject?
You guys hate being wrong and it shows.
Many well known scientists, military officers, and those in government know the truth of the UFO/ET/Alien question. Those with a brain and have looked at the evidence also know. You've seen the official NASA stereopairs (3 at least) of the craft. Prove it isn't.
Back to Japan . . . try to stay on topic.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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rrrAdam -
thanks for the info - very helpful.
The news is indeed reporting that the fuel rods were "twice completely exposed".
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
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klimmer, see the chicken little pic above....the fact that you are a science teacher is way scarier than the potential nuclear accident unfolding....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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klimmer, see the chicken little pic above....the fact that you are a science teacher is way scarier than the potential nuclear accident unfolding....
Hawkeye,
Do you read what you write before you post? Do you ever ask the question should I really post this?
I'm just gonna let your own words hang you.
Yea, someone that you disagree with is scarier than the disastrous nuclear accident unfolding, and the people that will die as a result. Y-e-a, r-i-g-h-t.
Put down your personal copy of the "The Idiot's Guide to Ad Hominem Attacks" and think just a little on your own.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
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This doesn't look good at all.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?hp
The plant’s operator, Tokyo Electric Power, said late Monday that repeated efforts to inject seawater into the reactor [Fuku #2] had failed, causing water levels inside the reactor’s containment vessel to fall and exposing its fuel rods. After what at first appeared to be a successful bid to refill the vessel, water levels again dwindled, this time to critical levels, exposing the rods almost completely, company executives said.
Workers were having difficulty injecting seawater into the reactor because its vents — necessary to release pressure in the containment vessel by allowing radioactive steam to escape — had stopped working properly, they said.
“They’re basically in a full-scale panic” among Japanese power industry managers, said a senior nuclear industry executive late Monday night. The executive is not involved in managing the response to the reactors’ difficulties but has many contacts in Japan. “They’re in total disarray, they don’t know what to do.”
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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Adam, thank you for the very informative posts. Having worked in a DOE underground disposal site for DOD rad waste, I have some experience with Alpha radiation, and rad worker training. The exposures we were dealing with were extremely low.
Paul, also thanks for the link - direct updates - good stuff.
Klimmer, I feel for the kids you teach... More little fear mongers to scare the world.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/03/nuke-fallout-risk
“Such a long time spent over water will mean that the vast majority of the radioactive particles will settle out of the atmosphere or get caught up in precipitation and rained out,” wrote Masters. “It is highly unlikely that any radiation capable of causing harm to people will be left in the atmosphere after seven days and 2000-plus miles of travel distance.”
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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The bravenewclimate "simple" explanation is really excellent. Klimmer did you read it?
Thanks for all the contributions rrrADAMS
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 14, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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I think maybe USA should think about seismic risks and nuclear plants:
...whether or not the risk they face is seismic (see Metsamor in Armenia, for instance, or Diablo Canyon in California).
siesmic events are factored into the design. i read somewhere where the magnitdue of this earthquake may have exceeded the "once in 1200 years" or so and therefore, may have exceeded what was deisgned into the structure. regardless, my understanding is that the Emergency Diesel Generators may have been overcome by the Tsunami. it is that power which would have kicked on and provided the energy for the cooling system.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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I heard a news report that the power plant in question was built in 1970 and was due to be shut down very soon due to it's age. The report also stated that at that time safety standards in Japan for nuclear power reactors were for the "largest likely event," as opposed to the "largest possible event."
Can anyone here comment on the veracity of this information?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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Highest magnitude tested - at what distance? It makes a huge difference.
I'll say this again - the shaking in Japan was NOT as hard as you might think for an EQ this size because the EQ was FAR AWAY from Land.
The shaking was harder in Haiti (for a M7), way harder. My guess is that these power plants were indeed designed to withstand this level of shaking, and also, by and large, they withstood the seismic shaking quite well (as did most of Japan's infrastructure).
The problem is the flooding caused by the tsunami, NOT the shaking. And yes, this appears to be an engineering design flaw.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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Rescue helicopters returning to the USS Ronald Reagan battle group
are coming back radioactive. Obviously with radio nuclei outgassed
from the Fukushima reactors stuck to them.
Reports say the crews and equipment are fine after being rinsed with
soap and water.
Hopefully everyone is wearing respirators to keep the radioactive particles
out of their lungs when flying into the hot zone.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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klimmer...I for one hear it loud and clear. Do not use Nuclear Fission Reactors. Perhaps for research purposes, space-probes, etc. but it is just too dangerous for Earth based power generation... Once again, you show us that you have no idea what you are talking about. They do NOT use fission reactors, of any kind, in space probes.
What they do is use the heat from normal decay of some radioisotopes to create electrical energy. They have even used plutonium for this, and this IS a big concern, as if the rocket explodes, with the payload, it showers LOTS of nasty stuff into the atmosphere.
Now, quick reality check here... Have there been more nuke plant disasters, or rocket failures in which the payload was lost in that explosion?
Quick... Go google it, HOPING that I am wrong. But, please, at least have the stones to post up that you are wrong, and appreciate being corrected. You have yet to do this when corrected, and there is a large sample base of you being corrected, so it really does speak volumes concerning your critical thinking abilities.
If you like, I'll do it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator
Your ignorance screams when you post at times. You say that you are a science teacher, and go over much of this in 'physics' and earth science, but rolling a ball down an inclined plane is 'physics' too, very different from nuclear physics, which you do not seem to grasp as well as you would like people to think.
And big deal concerning your radioactive sources... You must know that those can be gotten online, by anyone, right? And they can be handled, with your bare hands, which is why anyone can get them. The NRC considers materials like that to be the same as that in a smoke detector, and gives the manufacturers a 'general license' to sell it, to the general public.
And, getting a 'radioactive materials' kit, with a suggested lesson plan does not make you an expert in nuclear physics... However, you thinking you are, is dangerous. Hell, I work at a nuke, am familiar with the systems, and how it works... I am also a nuclear and theoretical physics hobbyist, and that doesn't make me an expert, and I don't claim to be.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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Lollie...Oh, btw - almost ALL nuclear plants in the world are Japanese. That's a high tech country, and if anybody knows what they're doing, it's them... reassuring, huh? Whait... What?
Where do you get that from? I believe the vast majority of the plants online today, and even currently under construction are of American or French design.
And if the events at Fuku had stopped the day it had happened, it would still be among the 3 worst accidents, as now there are 3 significant nuclear events. If it stopped that day, it may have been 3rd, now it is 2nd, and TMI is 3rd. But wording it like that makes it so much more 'dramatic'.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
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which you do not seem to grasp as well as you would like people to think.
This needs to be said again.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
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Hawkeye,
the Fukushima 1 plant was equipped with 13 diesel back-up generators to power the Emergency Core Cooling System (ECCS), but all of these failed. Battery back-ups are available, but these function only for a few hours. This is misleading, as I believe the EDGs of the other units are up and running in the units that were already offline for refueling outages. The EDGs for the affected units apparently did start, and run as designed for about an hour, until they were swamped with water from the tsunami.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 14, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
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While I am no expert at Nuclear Power Plants (Adam seems to know his stuff) I do manage construction of two Category 3 Nuclear facilities for DOE at the Hanford site.
We performed an analysis utilizing our underlying geology to come up with what we call Site Specific Ground Motion for our Design Basis Event (Earthquake). Thankfully we are far enough inland so the "flooding" due to water will be more than a 1 in 1 million year event. Although I suppose I should review and see when the great floods came through here because of the failure of Lake Bonneville. Also, we look at Volcanic Events (primarily Ashfall) and design for those as well.
We are in the process of trying to buy two 5 MW EDG's to provide emergency power in the case of a Loss of Off Site Power. As taxpayers you do NOT want to know how much they cost. Please understand that I am not saying they are not required , they absolutely are. Prior to this job I worked at a plant that destroyed WMD's filled with Nerve Agent and we lost power. Our EDG's overheated because the Maintenance guy forgot to perform proper valve lineup and it was almost a very bad day so I have seen first hand how important these systems are.
As someone said, there were probably some battery backup's for the Reactor Coolant which would only provide power for a brief period.
Here are a couple simple links on the Reactors and what a melt down is.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?ref=asia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591
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