9/11 belief, mythology, and the unknowable (OT)

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Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
The question that draws me to these conspiracy theory threads is to attempt to understand why it is that some people, apparently more than a few, feel compelled to not only believe the stuff, in the face of all evidence, science and engineering, common sense, and Occam's Razor, they feel a need to preach to others about their beliefs. It almost seems that it's a religion to them.

Although all these conspiracy theories have sordid, ugly roots, going back to the so-called Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's no surprise that many of the World Trade Centre conspiracy theorists also believe that the Jews who worked there were told not to go to work on 11/9, so that relatively few Jews died. A vicious lie, and even if some of the conspiracy theorists don't believe it, some of their brethren do.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released for public comment by July 2008 and that the final report will be released shortly thereafter.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.


Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.


Tony,
the cool thing about your conspiracy theory is getting 200 technical experts to forgo all their training, lie shamelessly about some 3,000 deaths and to all America and their own families.

your belief in evil and or incompetence in people is alarming to say the least.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
MH,

My experience with the "Truthers" is that they are a loose coalition of paranoids. In many ways they resemble the Tea party..... not in ideology but in their use of misinformation.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
Skip

Maybe you can answer my question.

Madeline Sweeney started her call at 6:27 about the so called hijacking.

The plane had not taken off until 7:59

What am I missing here?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
i dont know WB. but clearly she was then willing to give her life to the conspiracy?

and the Olson guy? gave up his wife for the conspiracy?

and all the technical experts lieing? so do you think werner that all these so called experts, government agents are all so evil as to kill their own kind and nobody says anything?

have you ever even considered how hard it would be if your little rescue team if they were forced by the government to lie about someones death, would they could they do it?

i freaking doubt it.

the disturbing thing about all this is not the minor discrepancies in the entire 911 story. it is that the truthers have not considered the "human" element of all that would have to be involved, and then are so jaded as to actually believe all this nonsense...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
MH,

My experience with the "Truthers" is that they are a loose coalition of paranoids. In many ways they resemble the Tea party..... not in ideology but in their use of misinformation.

The MSM and both political establishments have attempted to portray the Teapartyers in that light , but it just generally isn't true. Truthers are for the most part either marginalized or ignored. (they do make for good interviews when a reporter can single one out, hanging out at the fringes of an event though.)

And what "misinformation" exactly are the teaparties expounding?

Don't think you've ever met one.

They are mostly housewives and small businessmen.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:02pm PT

A very good friend of mine was no more than a few hundred yards from the Pentagon when it was hit.

He saw the plane go in.

What am I to make of it? Is he a liar?


Awhile back Chaz said his uncle (I think?) also saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

Can't wait to see the BS response to this too. Actually my guess is they'll ignore you.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
Dirt,
You ostrich, the conspiracy knows no limits.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
I know Reilly. I'm just a sheeple, blind to the all-powerful NWO and their servant, George W. Bush.

I'm sure that if I watch Simpson's--or maybe Family Guy--long enough that sly NWO will be communicating more messages.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
Werner, you will find that Truthers have difficulty understanding time zones.

And it was Burnetts call that was made at 6:27 PST, not Sweeney. Sweeney's was at 8:22 EST.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
Ummmm ok you think? This is the supposed actual record?

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
Haha, good point mono.

And TGT, by misinformation I was referring to those in the T party who claim that Obama was not born in the U.S. They, like Truthers, make things up and rely on peoples stupidity or ignorance.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
No confirmation of timezone there Werner or who originated it.

Do ya really think the NWO would start making the calls to early?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
Again those people are not representative, but they make for great sound bites and a method to marginalize the whole group.

It's effective.

You bought it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
monolith

Who originated it?

It says:

The start of Amy (Madeline) Sweeney's first connected phone call as reported in the airfone records. (These times are two hours behind those usually reported, presumably because they're quoted in the time zone for American Airlines HQ in Texas: MDT.)
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
Is that how the calls back then were transmitted from the airphone?

To low earth orbit Motorola Iridium satellites?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
I think it's an important point to make that their is PLENTY of evidence we have not got the whole story about 9-11 and that a cover-up is in place. The 9-11 commission members and even commission leaders have admitted such themselves.

That's even if you completely disregard ALL physical evidence regarding how the towers fell, what happened at the pentagon, and so on.

Examples of Issues hidden or unresolved.

Prior knowledge of Mohammed Atta-Able Danger
Atta receiving $100,000 from the Pakistani ISI cheif who was meeting with top Admin officials on 9-11
Details of war games planned and executed on 9-11
Put options on Airlines
Dick Cheney ordering fighters to stand down as testified by Norman Mineta.
Bush lying about seeing the second plane hit the towers on TV when that was impossible at the time
Identities of the Hijackers

and on and on. And why not have testimony under oath by Bush and Cheney separately?

This ain't going away. Sort of like the Kennedy assasination. Maybe space aliens didn't shoot Kennedy out of the flying saucer but it's too fishy to buy the standard story.

The best way to distract people from the truth of a real conspiracy is to inflate it until it's unbelievable.

Buy hey, we love to be in our shell of denial and not take responsibility for our corruption and stupidity.

Cause guess what, there's another conspiracy for which there is PLENTY of evidence and which cost more lives and more money than 9-11 by far, The invasion of Iraq on false pretenses that led to an illegal war against a country that didn't attack us and didn't have WMDs. WTF! Nobody is even having a commission on that crime! We don't want to know even though we KNOW!!

We're prisoners of a status quo government run by a corporatocracy-monied elite. The Sheep will be kept alive for shearing and we sheep like that

Peace

Karl
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
Good summary Karl. Ill let this thread die in peace now.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
like i say, hawk, it's a flat-out crock. their scenario can only be based on imaginative theorizing based on old blueprints. there was no forensic work done. as i'm sure rox will enjoy telling you, there was a tremendous effort to whisk all WTC debris away swiftly. the steel was shipped to china and smelted. this was all done in complete defiance of ordinary forensic procedure for a crime scene. it's a big reason we're sitting here arguing today, and it isn't an accidental reason.

if we suspend disbelief for a moment and assume the NIST scenario could be true, it falls apart with simple physics. the building fell in something like 8-9 seconds, a second or so faster than freefall speed. nothing like that would fall at freefall speed unless there was somehow an immediate liquidation of its internal structure, letting gravity do what gravity does. the only way this happens in a non-fantasy world is with planned controlled demolition. NIST's little scenario--the failure of a single (!) internal column would still require the haphazard sagging, creaking and groaning, partial collapse, tipping and so forth that would go with such a scenario, and those things add seconds and seconds to the collapse time. and NIST does not address the glaring truth that ought to be hitting everyone square in the face: when an itty bitty part of any three-dimensional grid structure fails--the rest of the structure simply holds it up. the load automatically redistributes. extraordinary collapse requires extraordinary destruction, which is entirely absent in the NIST fairy tale.

you seem to be impressed by large numbers of experts. richard gage, a bay area architect with whom i have worked personally, has persuaded more than 1200 architects and engineers--someone got picky when i mentioned this before because there aren't a lot of high-rise people in there, and we'll have to admit that--to sign his petition to reinvestigate:

ae911truth.org
Mimi

climber
Jul 1, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
Rok, the point I was trying to make with reference to Olsen was where did his wife disappear to if it was a missile strike and not her jet? Someone of that importance and all the other people on the plane didn't suddenly vanish. Not sure why the phone calls were so confused on Ted's part except for the trauma of losing his wife under those horrible circumstances.

Once again, I find it profoundly exasperating that Truthers really believe that the previous administration, in all of their utter incompetance and buffoonery in their estimation, could pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude; one that would not have leaks or would not have a string of suspicious murders to shut people up. I challenge anyone to provide one person who has come forward as a bonafide insider to blow the lid off this thing.

And WB, I know you're surrounded by drones, but why become one of them? LOL!

http://www.debunking911.com/
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