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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Fratboy" - yeah right, you just keep projecting that claptrap...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 09:22am PT
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Ed,
I do respect your ability to do science and your knowledge of science. I do no doubt. Far beyond me. I have learned lots from you.
However, just patterns in the ceiling?
OK, please tell me what this perfect 3D dome is doing in the middle of an impact crater on the surface of Mars? What could it possibly be? What Geologic/Impact phenomenon would allow this to happen? We understand the physics of impacts pretty well now. It is empirical. We can measure it. We can predict the crater size from the projectlie size. And we can predict the projectile size from the crater size.
This massive 500 ft or so 3D dome on Mars doesn't fit any of the physics known. (But it would be a perfect place to build a structure).
So Ed, what is your hypothesis as to what it is? And don't tell me it is sand blowing into the crater and forming a perfect 3D dome. PPppppppppfffff.
http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/m15012/m1501228.html
Here is PhD Melosh's Impact Crater Calculator on-line:
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater.html
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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MB,
Nice try. The graphic you posted is not to scale and is for complex craters. Central uplift in craters has very particular dimensions and size relative to the crater surrounding it. This is known and empirical, and predictive.
The official image I posted on Mars is a simple crater, not a complex crater.
Choose a better graphic for a complex crater that is to scale and you will see the error in the graphic you posted. There are very specific ratio sizes in regards to the central uplift and the diameter of the complex crater.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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Damn Irish giants....... how did they get the blocks so perfect?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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my hypothesis?
certainly looks like an impact crater to me
the morphology of craters depends on the local geology, the particulars of the impacter, the weathering of the site, etc... all of these are much more probable than concluding it is a structure built by aliens.
Further, it is difficult to tell, just from a satellite image, what is on the ground. Many images, with many different light angles, or better yet SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) images of the ground are better (wasn't there a SAR instrument on MRO?).
to my way of thinking, and I am an old fart, probably with a lot less intellectual creativity and openness then I used to have, is: impact crater highly probable, alien structure improbable.
If I were a research manager at NASA I probably wouldn't put a lot of resources (or any) into investigating such a thing.
As for the bible code, there is published mathematical/statistical literature showing that the decoded patterns are unspecific and agree with what you would expect from random coincidence. To extract prophecy from the code requires interpretation of the decoded "phrases." It is how horoscopes work, the "predictions" are so general that they can be interpreted as relevant, there is not predictive value as almost any outcome can be used to "prove" the fortune.
DMT complains that we lack imagination about the future, I suspect he thinks that some of modern physics is a bit airy-fairy... I remind you all that when Einstein formulated his "Special Theory of Relativity" it was published in 1905. The first powered air flight was in 1903. It was also in 1905 that Einstein published his explanation of the "photoelectric effect" by which electrons are ejected from the surface of a metal when light is shined on that surface. His explanation was the first application of quantum mechanics in a "modern form."
Einstein's third paper of that year was the explanation of Brownian motion, the random jittering of small particles on fluid surfaces due to the motion of atoms hitting the particle... a direct observation of atoms, if you will.
Atoms, quanta, space-time... in 1905. Most of you reading this have only a passing, superficial understanding of any of it, as you use technologies built from it, coming 105 years ago.
Don't lecture on the lack of imagination... there is a world out there which is imagined, in the same fantastic detail, and probably with the same importance 100 years hence.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 4, 2010 - 08:10am PT
If someone told the Donner Party, at their departure from St Louis, that someday (soon) they could walk into a hollow metal tube, close the door and fly through the air, to California, in a little over 3 hours time, eating lousy, expensive food (but its not PEOPLE).
They would have and could have come up with all sorts of 'that's impossible' scenarios.
And they would have been right. But a hundred seventy some odd years later.... things have changed.
Just as our current notions of the cosmos will change. WILL change.
Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.
DMT
I refrain, usually, from stating what is technically impossible... I hate to say "you can't do that" unless well understood "laws of nature" are violated...
...and I do believe that things will change. But those seeds of change are here already...
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Flashy P
climber
Sparks, NV
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I got very imaginative last night while working on my home made natural plastic handholds. Some came out pretty good, and I nailed a few to my woody. They took nails much better through pre drilled holes than trying to drill out large diameter holes for bolts. I made some pinner holds but also some buckets, using molds cast from my body parts filled with a mixture of gorilla glue and kitty litter. I trained very hard last night, no comping in the near future but if I want to be a truly dedicated climber who performs at the top of the ratings scale, I need to work hard every day.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 4, 2010 - 08:10am PT
If someone told the Donner Party, at their departure from St Louis, that someday (soon) they could walk into a hollow metal tube, close the door and fly through the air, to California, in a little over 3 hours time, eating lousy, expensive food (but its not PEOPLE).
They would have and could have come up with all sorts of 'that's impossible' scenarios.
And they would have been right. But a hundred seventy some odd years later.... things have changed.
Just as our current notions of the cosmos will change. WILL change.
Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.
DMT
This statement can be used to justify the most improbable of predictions. I doesn't get us anywhere.
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Flashy P
climber
Sparks, NV
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has anyone else been experimenting with home made handholds? Hopefully Weld_it will get back in here and talk about his upcoming Nose climb. He is an indoor climbing, so I'm sure he will dab that send. Outdoor climbers would be way better if they'd just dedicate to being the best they possibly can and learning the skills to climb the upper grades. It's too bad they think .13 is hard and don't realize their full potential.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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In the winter of 1846-1847 the Donner Party lived their infamous encampment in the Sierra, drawn to the promise of California.
James Clerk Maxwell entered the University of Edinburgh later that year. Less than a decade later he was on the path to synthesize the work of the highly mathematical German physics community and the highly empirical work of the English physics community into what we now recognize as Electromagnetism, also Classical Electrodynamics.
Electricity and magnetism were the first forces to be "unified" in a long standing program in physics pursing the notion that all forces are manifestations of a single force, though Maxwell didn't recognize what he was initiating, not all the forces of nature were known to him then...
It is true that given the plight of the Donner party, little from this world of physics could intervene to change their fates. And what could have possibly done so, from Maxwell's contribution, wasn't available until the advent of radio, based on the research of Hertz in 1888, and applied by Marconi in the 1890s. But I still marvel over the compact radios we now all use, the application of semiconductor technologies of the last decade... and of the idea that a small radio transmitter could transmit our distress signal with precise coordinates to an international emergency response network.
That came too late for the Donners.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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but we do know what would be required for interstellar space flight
we can write the specifications, then see what the technologies would have to provide...
...once done, you can decide for yourself if it is "impossible"
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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But how did the Donner Party get the ark on the moon? Explain that.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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PX,
Man that made me laugh! Lol. :-))
I seriously think that photo of the insane is a great capture of ST. He-he. Man that is the truth.
Yes, I throw out crazy ideas and then see what sticks. Asking questions and making observations is the start of the process . . .
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Conspiracy Theories Explained
Random events are deeply meaningful to paranoid schizophrenics. Is something happening in their brains?
By Kathleen McGowan, published on November 01, 2004 - last reviewed on February 20, 2007
Paranoid schizophrenics are prone to delusions, tales in which random events become deeply meaningful. Some believe in complex conspiracies; others think they are Jesus Christ.
These stories sound crazy, but they may be the brain's efforts to make sense of its own internal messages, suggests Shitij Kapur, professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto and vice president of research at the Canadian Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. In addition to other brain abnormalities, schizophrenics have too much dopamine. Just as addicts' desensitized dopamine systems make them feel that nothing matters, high levels of the neurotransmitter make schizophrenics believe that everything is significant.
Because the addict's dopamine-driven salience system keeps telling her that something very important is happening, ordinary events appear intensely meaningful. That police car? That song on the radio? That man with a cigarette walking by? They must be part of a massive international conspiracy.
Kapur calls it "biased inductive logic"—a top-down effort to explain the feeling that everything seems important. The cognitive parts of a schizophrenic's brain create the paranoid tale in an effort to explain the constant red alert blaring from the dopamine circuits, using any stimuli available. This is why delusions are culturally appropriate. African schizophrenics may fear they've fallen under the spell of a shaman, while Kapur's patients in Toronto think that the Mounties are after them.
Kapur cautions that this theory is still speculative, but it could support a radical idea: treating schizophrenia with cognitive therapy. If drugs control the overactive dopamine system, patients may then gradually unlearn their delusions.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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This thread reminds me of stuff I have video taped that people tell me can't possibly exist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole
The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957.
The theory of general relativity predicts that if traversable wormholes exist, they could allow time travel.
Traversable wormholes
Lorentzian traversable wormholes would allow travel from one part of the universe to another part of that same universe very quickly or would allow travel from one universe to another. The possibility of traversable wormholes in general relativity was first demonstrated by Kip Thorne and his graduate student Mike Morris in a 1988 paper; for this reason, the type of traversable wormhole they proposed, held open by a spherical shell of exotic matter, is referred to as a Morris-Thorne wormhole. Later, other types of traversable wormholes were discovered as allowable solutions to the equations of general relativity, including a variety analyzed in a 1989 paper by Matt Visser, in which a path through the wormhole can be made in which the traversing path does not pass through a region of exotic matter. However in the pure Gauss-Bonnet theory (a modification to general relativity involving extra spatial dimensions which is sometimes studied in the context of brane cosmology) exotic matter is not needed in order for wormholes to exist- they can exist even with no matter.[6] A type held open by negative mass cosmic strings was put forth by Visser in collaboration with Cramer et al.,[3] in which it was proposed that such wormholes could have been naturally created in the early universe.
Wormholes connect two points in spacetime, which means that they would in principle allow travel in time, as well as in space. In 1988, Morris, Thorne and Yurtsever worked out explicitly how to convert a wormhole traversing space into one traversing time.[7] However, according to general relativity it would not be possible to use a wormhole to travel back to a time earlier than when the wormhole was first converted into a time machine by accelerating one of its two mouths.[8]
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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Klimmer, we think your great here on our craft. I wish my son had you for a physics coach back when he was attending school, he loves stuff like this! You've met his mom, she's from Mars. She's my favorite Martian! It seems again that I am disappointed with Ed. All I can say is there you go again Ed. I gotta go cause I'm getting yelled at, keep up the good stuff. Glenn, can you please post the U-tube of John Glenn punching the skeptic? Thanks, PX
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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OK Mike,
I'm gonna make it easy.
http://www.psi.edu/explorecraters/background.htm
Simple Craters:
"The image to the left is a very simple, bowl shaped crater on the Moon and is typical of small craters that have formed relatively recently. It has a raised rim around the edge, and nice, sharp features. These sorts of craters are usually only a handful of miles across, at the most, on planets like the Earth, Mars, and the Moon."
Complex Craters:
"As mentioned before, not all craters are the same. While the smallest craters on a planet will be nice, simple bowl shapes, the medium to large-sized craters (my note: these will be miles across in diameter) will have a more complex form. Scientists refer to these as 'complex' craters. Like the crater shown here to the left, they can have ridges or 'terraces' inside of their rims with flatter floors, and a central peak, or ring of peaks.
The same goes for the lunar crater on the right. The floor is flatter, the crater rim is broken by many terraces, and the central group of peaks is in the form of a ring."
It is a matter of scale. The image of the crater on Mars is a simple crater. It is about 1500 ft in diameter. It cannot be a complex crater with a central uplift. To be a complex crater it has to be miles in diameter to have the energy necessary to form a central uplift.
I hope you are now clear on it. This is known. They have modelled Simple and Complex Craters. They are different by size in diameter, and also the Kinetic Energy involved. Only a complex crater forms a central uplift. But to be a complex crater it has to have a very large diameter. Miles in diameter, not a few 1500 ft.
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