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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
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"Death Panels"? Give it up fattrad. To a great extent, they already exist in private insurance. This bill isn't going to change that.
I work in middle management for one of the insurance companies mentioned here as the evil empires (the one insuring a nature-loving sushi chef) . We do some good things and some bad things, like almost every other corporate entity in the world. We do have significant care management programs that try to help members with chronic conditions. And there are some plans that offer premium discounts for regular checkups and healthy lifestyles. On the other side of the coin, I'm sure we also decline some folks who really need coverage, sometimes probably for trivial things. And we do pay our execs pretty well.
All in all, I'd have preferred a single payor bill that had much more radical cost control in it. Got rid of pay for procedure.
But that wasn't going to happen. And we did need to do something. The current situation is having significantly bad impacts on our economy. While this bill does have a cost associated with it, doing nothing had a pretty significant cost as well. Certainly running around yelling "the Communists are coming" wasn't helping.
If any of you actually want a good, concise non-partisan summary of what passed, try this:
http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/housesenatebill_final.pdf
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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Werner-
And you live here? And 'The Ditch' is NOT a country.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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Increasingly, I'm thinking David Frum is correct. The Republicans painted themselves into a corner both policy-wise and politics-wise: they failed on both accounts.
The Reps. can play party of no all spring, summer, and fall, but now that the sausage is made and the benefits will start becoming apparent, people will forget about how the sausage was made. And Reps will be viewed as angry contrarians uninterested in governing.
The Reps really screwed themselves in the long run on this.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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All you have to do is read GAO reports on Medicare billing fraud, and health care billing fraud in general, to know that the government is a poor regulator in this area
The government is a poor regulator?
What would be a better regulator?
Please don't say "The free market..."
Economics 101:
 Free markets are not effective when there are complex goods and unsophisticated participants.
Free markets are not effective when some participants have an overwhelming information advantage.
Health care is the extreme example of a complex good. Almost all consumers are unsophisticated. Do you really understand that contract you are signing? Did you have your lawyer read it? Did you have your doctor(s) read it? Did you do a statistical analysis of all the possible risks/costs? Because if you did not do all that, you have no clue what you are actually buying.
On the other hand, the insurance company, and their army of lawyers, doctors, actuaries, etc. understand every word of your contract (after all, they wrote it.)
Heath insurance companies are the extreme example of a market participant with an information advantage.
No one here can honestly say they understand the contract they have with their insurance provider.
It's not a free market if only one party understands what is being bought/sold.
And no one comparison shops for health care. When you break you leg at the crag, do you shop around for an emergency room? Compare rates, quality of service, negotiate with the hospitals for a better deal? Of course not.
Purchasing health care is not the same as purchasing a loaf of bread.
The solution?
Economics 101 tells us the answer: Regulation.
In markets where there are complex goods and/or an information advantage, the government must be involved to level the playing field. Only government has the resources to balance the resources of the insurance companies.
Modern heath care must be regulated. Otherwise the consumers would be so screwed that they would just give up, there would be no markets at all, and health care would regress to 19th century standards.
And the only entity that can regulate health care is government.
The notion that government shouldn't regulate because it does a "poor" job (relative to what?) is nonsense.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
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Hate...err....love to break this to you Fatty. We already ration care in this country. The bill that passed Sunday ended most of it.
Tarek: So your answer to what you see as a totally inept government is a health care system completely controlled by the government?
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jstan
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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From mr. Steele:
Dear John,
They've done it. Nancy Pelosi and her Democrat minions in the U.S. House -- against the will of the American people -- have "passed" their radical government-run health care experiment.
I'm absolutely outraged and furious beyond belief at the Congressional Democrats' craven partisan tactics! Republicans are ready to fight back, and we need your immediate help to remind Pelosi and crew they work for you. That's why I've authorized a money bomb to send a message that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats will hear loud and clear.
Let's Fire Nancy Pelosi!
Go to GOP.com right now and make a secure online contribution of $40 or more to support our Republican money bomb and help ensure our Party has the resources to elect Republican majorities to the U.S. House and Senate in 2010 so we can fire Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. Our goal is to raise $402,010 or more in the next 40 hours.
With your emergency contribution, the RNC will lay the groundwork to fire all the Democrats who ignored the American people and passed a health care scheme that takes more of your hard-earned income to pay for their unsustainable, freedom destroying entitlement.
John, we need your support to make a major statement right now. Help fire Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the U.S. House and replace her with Republican leadership who will work for you and your family -- not the liberal special interest groups. Make a donation to the RNC's money bomb right away. Thank you.
End of quote
You have a failure? Try and turn it into money. Stir up some anger and turn it into money,
Money.
Money.
Power is money.
We have to have power.
But, "minions". That's a step up from the norm.
And "craven partisan tactics"
Curious that he called it a "money BOMB.
Telegraphing where the republicans are headed next?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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dktem writes:
"The government is a poor regulator?
What would be a better regulator?"
Me. That's what.
When I have a choice, my money doesn't end up in the hands of inefficient, ineffective operations.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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Chaz wrote: When I have a choice, my money doesn't end up in the hands of inefficient, ineffective operations.
Fact...nothing changes for your health care policy.
Fact...unless you make over $200,000 it doesn't cost you a penny.
Fact...if you make under $200,000 you get health care tax credit.
Sorry to dispute your emotions with facts.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
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Fattrad, end-of-life care is a huge contributor to health-care costs in this country. But it is really a moral, personal question and it is difficult for me to envision legislated rationing in Medicare. It would upset too many people.
The optional counseling that was labelled as "death panels" seems to me a reasonable solution as it allows the individual to talk to their physician and discuss these end-of-life issues.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Chaz,
I'm sure you are as knowledgeable about contract and medical law as the billion-dollar insurance companies and their ivy-league educated lawyers. I'm sure you understand the cost and benefit of every medical procedure, drug, or treatment in existence. And I'm sure you have the time and financial resources to fight the insurance companies in court if they don't uphold their end of the agreement.
So I know you always make the right choice and never get the short end of the deal.
You don't need any government to protect you.
The rest of us however, are just not so awesome.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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"We need death panels, what do you do with the 94 year old who wants the fourth heart procedure? I can't repeat what the Kaiser employee said about the issue."
Can you cite such a person? No? That is because the CURRENT death panels do not allow it. There are criteria, and age is among them.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Mr D'A writes:
"Fact...nothing changes for your health care policy."
It's either going to be more expensive, or it will go under. Something's gotta give.
There will be changes, and not for the better.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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dktem writes:
"You don't need any government to protect you.
The rest of us however, are just not so awesome."
You're being duped if you think The Government has your best intrests as one of it's priorities.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Right Chaz. I'm a sucker.
I should trust the insurance companies more than the government.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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The implications of the fight over this bill are going to be politically huge.
The Blacks will remember the teabagger republicans calling John Lewis a nigger, and spitting on him.
The gays will remember them calling Barney Frank a faggot.
Yep, they'll be wanting to vote republican.
The seniors will be getting their $250 rebate on Part D almost immediately, and the Republicans will be trying, for the next year, to take it away.
Yep, them seniors will be backing the republicans.
A whole bunch of people changing jobs will find that they'll be keeping their insurance.
The people aged 18-26 will be able to stay on parent's insurance.
They'll be fighting to get rid of their benefits......
Yup, the Repubs have got it made.....
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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dktem writes:
"I should trust the insurance companies instead more than the government."
No.
You should trust yourself.
Nobody knows better what's good for you than you.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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"You're being duped if you think The Government has your best intrests(sic) as one of it's priorities."
A better summary of the past administration is not possible,
Edit:
Chaz:
So in order to have your comment sound in a certain way you categorically indict "government" and by implication us all?
The debate conducted in the face of the 60 vote rule imposed by monolithic action of one party made very evident the fact governance in a representative democracy is, by its nature, messy and imperfect. That monolithic response did not help this.
Some would argue a monarchy or dictatorship is better. The last president indeed opined that such a state is "easier." Odd that such a staunch believer in democracy would voice this thought. Wouldn't you say?
I have to ask. Do you detect streams of people emigrating so that they might live in one of those "perfect" states?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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That's why I wrote "The Government", rather than "Obama" or "The Democrats".
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Yes, all we need in life are a few happy clichés.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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Until you get tort reform and sensible rules, the costs will explode. This bill did nothing to correct the root issues.
Sorry Fatty, but more BS. It's interesting how quickly the right's mask slip to reveal it's pro-business, anti-consumer bias.
Bashing lawyers has long been a popular tactic during election years to pass insurance friendly legislation designed solely to limit the right's of injured consumers to sue for injuries. Legislation was passed in CA to limit the amount of damages a person can receive in med mal cases, which has SEVERELY limited the ability to litigate such cases. Has the cost of healthcare of liability insurance gone down? No. Have insurance company profits gone up? Yes. You do the math and figure the real motive for such "tort reform."
If you want people to stop suing doctors, tell them to stop screwing up. Studies by health industry groups have determined that there are roughly 16,000-20,000 preventable deaths per year in this country alone. In addition, a study issued by the Harvard Medical School several years ago estimated that only one in nine persons with a legitimate case of medical negligence actually files suit.
How then is tort reform a real answer?
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