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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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I don't buy the you have to kill it to save deal myself. I must be a non typical hunter.. Never did see one of those wildlife management tools ask the deer if they needed kiiling to be saved.. Yes, Trophy hunting is pretty darn sick.
For decades I did not hunt because i worked in a restarunte and pretty much got free food year round. these days money is tight and I have a full size freezer so I would like to get some food in there. The care package of Venison, homgrown beef and pork that my sister gives me for christmass goes a long way twords makeing ends meet.
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syrys
Big Wall climber
Magnolia, Texas
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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It puts the lotion on it's back.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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If one doesn't understand the difference between trophy hunting and climbing, then they've somehow missed the point with regard to what a gun actually does.
I don't diss anyone who kills for food. I don't put much stock in those who kill a deer a year, have it jerked and then say "I hunt for food' though. If that's your kinfolk I will suppress my giggles.
That's my kinfolk. I did it growing up in western PA. The first day of buck season was a school holiday (they used some other reason as an excuse, but everyone knew it was because half the boys weren't going to be in school.)
I doubt it's a very economical way to get meat. Sure the meat is "free," but considering the cost of butchering, storage, etc. the actual cost is probably not better than just buying beef in bulk (I do like venison though.) Modern mass production of meat is brutally efficient, and the casual hunter really can't compete.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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Ignorance of where food comes from, the grizzly man, trophy hunting- the issue is guns in the parks.
My prediction, this law will only affect open carry fetishists. People with concealed weapons permits, will keep their weapons concealed, Problem solved.
Discharging a firearm in a park remains illegal, except in self defense which a person will have to argue was the case if they blast the back bear eating from their pick a nick basket.You can have a loaded firearm in your campsite, trailer, or hotel room, but you can't discharge it.
The people who like to carry their guns to the coffee shop, and now down the tourist highway to Yosemite Falls, to exercise their rights are going to freak people out, but they will be allowed to freak people out.
Before you gun nuts rag on me, as you will, for thinking that people shouldn't be freaked out by guns, consider this.
If you carry your gun into a coffee shop legally, with the ammo stored in your pocket, others may not know your gun is unloaded. Are they supposed to ask you if your gun is unloaded? Perhaps they think it wise not to question the guy with the gun. It's also not wise to assume the gun is unloaded. So they leave.
Coffee shop loses money, and your rights make you a dick.
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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tom woods
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
My prediction, this law will only affect open carry fetishists. People with concealed weapons permits, will keep their weapons concealed, Problem solved. Agree that most of this is the same "blood will run in the streets" baloney that gets trotted out everytime a restriction on guns gets eased. End result is most people aren't gonna notice a difference.
The people who like to carry their guns to the coffee shop, and now down the tourist highway to Yosemite Falls, to exercise their rights are going to freak people out, but they will be allowed to freak people out. Nowhere in the Constitution is there a guarantee that you can't be offended. There are a lot of things I'd rather not be subject to seeing or hearing (men making out in public, La Raza v Minutemen shouting matches/marches, Jehovah's Witnesses on my doorstep), but the fact remains that certain human rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. Like it or not. It was Thomas Jefferson who once said, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
Before you gun nuts rag on me, as you will, for thinking that people shouldn't be freaked out by guns, consider this.
If you carry your gun into a coffee shop legally, with the ammo stored in your pocket, others may not know your gun is unloaded. Are they supposed to ask you if your gun is unloaded? Perhaps they think it wise not to question the guy with the gun. It's also not wise to assume the gun is unloaded. So they leave.
Coffee shop loses money, and your rights make you a dick. So if someone is acting normal, non-threatening, well-kept and happens to have a visible holstered firearm, you're saying most people are AFRAID of him? Most people think he's a cop and move on. Many actually feel safer. Now if he's acting odd, handling the grip, talking to himself or gets irrationally belligerent, sure...worry is normal and the right thing. But otherwise you're describing an irrational fear of an object. Sigmund Freud once wrote: "The irrational fear of weapons is a sign of retarded emotional and sexual maturity." I honestly don't believe "most" rational people freak out.
It should be the actions and behavior of an individual that determines whether or not they are a threat. Just like you examine and check out that rock feature you're climbing. Some are bomber and safe, others are loose and deadly. But you don't immediately fear every crack, flake, handhold just because it MIGHT break.
Be rational.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
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It should be obvious to anyone who has read more than a few posts on the taco that there are no qualifications required to have an opinion here.
If there actually are some qualifications, I'm sure DMT has met them as much as anyone.
Any kid who has played with a gun in the woods has had that first "I just killed something" moment. I think one's reaction to that moment says much about a person. For me it was a robin in a spruce tree shot with a .22 rifle. I still have a pretty clear image of it laying there twitching. The sound of it's babies still chirping in the tree (which I never saw) drove the whole point home. Some people learn from this moment, but some just think it's fun.
Melodramatic? Perhaps. But I'm not squeamish. I've killed plenty of deer and never gave it a second thought. They were bucks, and someone was going to eat the meat.
I was in the Army during the Gulf War. I never saw combat, but we were preparing to ship out. If our unit did go, we would most likely have ended up urban combat in Baghdad. There were guys in my unit who were more than ready to kill civilians just as easily as combatants. They were just excited about a chance to use their weapons with live ammo.
The fact that some people are not capable of understanding the difference between killing out of necessity and killing for fun is one of the reasons I'd rather not see guns in NP campgrounds.
Trophy hunting is pointless. And it is despicable.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Interesting. Back in my IPSC days it was ocasionaly an eye opener to hear cops bragg about things they had made people do at gun point. Definatly a power trip to some. One cop was bragging about how he put a gun to a motorist durring a traffic stop and made him lie face down in the slush and mess up his fancy suit pretty much just because the cop decided this guy was a wise ass.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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Mad bolter's comments are very good. A gun is just another inanimate object with potential to do both harm and good. The dingbat holding it is the issue that needs to be addressed.
Most folks carrying concealed have lawful permits issued--after a police background checks. Criminals, on the other hand, *don't need no stinkin' background checks*. I'd rather see an open carry, thank you!
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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But otherwise you're describing an irrational fear of an object
This is ridiculously abstract.
This object was designed and engineered with the specific purpose of killing instantly with minimal effort.
Other objects can kill by accident. But arms, by definition, were built with no other purpose but to kill.
The notion that guns are "just another object." is nonsense. If they were just like any other object, then why are they the subject of such controversy?
Why are they the only physical object specifically called out as right in the Constitution?
It's because they are not just another object. They are an instrument of immense power.
The concern that people have with guns is that we are giving this immense power to anybody. Sure it's nice to know we can have it to protect ourselves, but now the other guy has it as well -- like my neighbor with the hot temper, and the guy who seems to overreact wildly when he thinks someone has cut him off in traffic.
I'd like to believe that most people will use that power responsibly. But it only takes one person, one time, to misuse that power in a moment and they can irrevocably harm me or my family in a big way.
Sure, I can use my power to protect myself from their power. But only if I'm faster, or better than him, and only if I'm prepared (i.e. packing) and only if I see it coming in time.
Maybe some folks don't want to live that way.
Also, can we just leave out the quotes from the Founding Fathers? Let's all agree that we hold them in high regard. But they've been repeated ad-nauseum in this debate and they don't add anything at this point.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
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"If they were just like any other object, then why are they the subject of such controversy?"
Because some people have irrational fears.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:11pm PT
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no more than climbing......How much have YOU CONTRIBUTED to the benefit of wildlife???? How many orgs do you support and belong to???? just wondering....
Perhaps my biggest contribution is that I don't kill anything that I don't eat or wear.
I also tend to vote in favor or legislation that would protect wildlife, like expanding National Parks. (Remember when JTree was just a lowly monument?) I've written letters in opposition to drilling in ANWR. This issue, as well as similar ones, has influenced my choice of political candidates.
Private organizations can do good, but they are limited if the legal framework isn't in place. So it has to start with sound national policy.
I do donate to several wildlife protection orgs(at least my wife does). I don't remember the names, but one of them sends us cute little stuffed animal toys on occasion.
Is that enough? I'd be happy to write a check to Ducks Unlimited as a peace offering...
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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Because some people have irrational fears.
I don't agree that the Founding Fathers had irrational fears.
I think their fear of the State's weapons were as rational as my fear of my neighbor's weapons. Either one could go crazy.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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Rednecks....Smokin', drinkin' & shootin'.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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"Have you ever wondered about the ATF alcahol tabaccco and fire arms...... WHO thought that one up???? LOL"
Never worked in a Bar, I take it.
What I never understood was why the Health Department cares about what goes on in bars.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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That's right Captain, but how about that other component of life- sex? Rednecks don't do to well there being overweight, ugly and smelly.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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The sheep don't know the difference....
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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dktem, you cannot discuss constitutional rights and law without the Founders. I'm sorry their words don't jive with your 21st century sensibilities.
I really pity you this summer after McDonald v. Chicago is settled in the Supreme Court because (if they rule as expected by most analysts) you're going to see two things. 1) More people legally carrying firearms in more places than ever and 2) a huge pushback against all forms of gun laws (magazine capacity, assault weapons, concealed carry, open carry, school zones, waiting periods after purchase, etc).
One thing you're NOT going to see, and that's blood flowing in the streets. It's just not going to happen.
And as an aside... your comment about actually wanting Joshua Tree to become a NP? Holy cow. Becoming a NP is probably the worst thing that ever happened to Josh. Widening of the roads and destruction of many of the largest Joshua Trees in the park, the intersection rock area rework cut right through undisturbed desert tortise habitat, crowds that never existed in the 80s now "love the park to death", getting a camp site is a joke. No, JTree was much, much better off when it was in a more natural state long before it became a NP.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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- sex? Rednecks don't do to well there being overweight, ugly and smelly.
And you should see what the Redneck men look like!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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Sheep are a western appetite, elsewhere any four legged barnyard animal will do.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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The posters here for guns in Nat'l Parks are clearly deviants to the positive on the bell curve--a good thing; safe, conscientious and back-country savvy.
The majority of people that WILL NOW carry guns into the largest of parks (read most visited) are in the bulk of the normal curve, and flat out scare the hell out me with regard to the handling of firearms when there are 1000's of people AND wildlife within their possible sights:-(
Example: Yellowstone, where 95% of the visitors travel no further than a few hundred FEET off of the paved roads and walking trails.
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