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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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Right Rick, but we'll agree that deeping the hole to place an angle and then blaim others is not exactly the same... Its pretty nasty. That's what I mean. Perhaps you can make the difference, but is not the majority in this thread...
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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And seeing the photos it seems to me that Jensen didn't ever wanted to climb the route, just discredit David and Ester Rivet, three things:
1) What do you mean by "not climbing the climb"? That he intended to do a hatchet job? What a preposterous and wholly unsupported accusation. In his 3+ decades of climbing he has never done a climb in which he disrespected the route. Yes, Richard did fully expect to find that the A6+ rating was a hoax. But to say his intent was to hatchet the route and the FA team is a farce.
2) Look Out! Danger! employed incredible and appalling tactics that one would have expected from a route in the 1930's, things all but unknown in modern times (e.g., wood dowels in holes which were then sawed off by the FA). This route is so far off the map that trying to correlate it to Intifada or any other route is misguided and useless. Which leads to point #3:
3) The purpose you seem to have is not to meaningfully examine the climb or the climbers, but to stir the pot with a predetermined agenda. Perhaps you will have something rational with which to respond, but if not, don't expect a further response from me.
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Right Rick, but we'll agree that deeping the hole to place an angle and then blaim others is not exactly the same... Its pretty nasty.
I believe that Jensen said that the hole was deep and that an angle would fit in the hole. Not that an angle necessary where placed there.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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Mark, neither for me, all the answers you are looking for have been answered yet since my point of view in older posts... beginning for 1930's tactics that even Beyer and others widely used in the 80's.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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My god, come one Raymond!
No way with people like you. Hope your next president will know why is not allowed to open the window of an airplane...
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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President? My country don't even have a president.
So what was so ridiculous with my comment? Jensen didn't necessary know how every hole where used. Do you know that Pelut didn't drill a deep hole and put in a copperhead or two in the hole?
I don't know what he put in that hole but I do not think that Pelut has made any comments in regard to those holes or has he?
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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Rivet Hanger's posts in this thread have been almost universally delusional, in particular that doozy about how Jensen (possibly the single most-slandered climber in the history of this site) has never been criticized as much as Pelut.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Pere,
you still dont seem to understand. Even if you are right and richard is lying and he did drill the hole deeper (not that i am saying he did) , he never should have had to because it should have had a bolt or rivet in it! Using wood and pins damages the rock and makes the route impossible to repeat without drilling more.
Also please dont clean up Pelut's insults. I know he said bastard at one point.
Edit Just because you are standing on crap all day doesnt make it hard. It's just crap!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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rick d: A monument to vanity
Careful with such psychological speculations. The "vanity" sword is one known to universally cut the hand of the one wielding it. Better to talk about objective facts rather than motivational speculations.
I'll explain more in an upcoming post about my actual motivations in continuing the ascent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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RH: you keep trying to float the idea that I'm lying and that I even drilled holes out deeper.
Ridiculous on both fronts. I don't think any climber has endured more scrutiny and speculation (spanning decades) than I have. What's come out of all that is that I don't lie about my climbing. On everything I have ever discussed regarding climbing, I've been more forthcoming (and in DETAIL) than anybody. And everything I've said has been vindicated over the years.
We all "lie" in all sorts of contexts. But I don't "lie" about climbing. Period.
Second, what you need to finally "get" is that I've been entirely forthcoming about the drilling I did (a LOT of it)! I didn't drill out any of Pelut's holes because they were already that deep when I found them, so I was able to put angles in some of those holes just as I found them.
I have been CLEAR that I don't know what Pelut put into those holes. Some of the pics of the hole ABOVE the "hook belay" clearly indicate that some sort of bashie-arrangement was in that hole (multiples?) But that UPPER hole is not the one of interest.
YOU circled that UPPER hole in your pic, but it's not the really interesting one (it's interesting, but not SO much so).
The really interesting one is the one just BELOW the "hook anchor." And that one is NOT visible in the pic you supplied.
There is a pic up-thread that shows a rack of gear hanging from some placement where that hole would be. There is SOMETHING there, but we can't see what it is. Perhaps it IS just another bashie-arrangement. Perhaps not.
ALL I KNOW is that both of those holes, fore and aft of the "hook anchor" are DEEPLY drilled.
And I found this same story all the way up the route. MOST of the holes are WIDE but fairly shallow. They got blown out when Pelut jerked out the bashies that had been in them.
But SOME of the holes, sprinkled all the way up the route, are DEEPLY drilled. I don't know why some were that deep, but it's just an objective fact that they were.
And I KNOW that the "hook anchor" was DEEPLY drilled. The hooks are deeply drilled, and the holes fore and aft are deeply drilled. That was no "death anchor!"
As has been stated just above, it really doesn't matter WHAT I did to get up the route. Even if the whole climbing community comes to share "rick d's" perspective that I SHOULD have stopped after the first pitch, it changes nothing about what Pelut did. You can't get Pelut off the hook by bashing on ME. The facts of the FA are what they are. And the facts of the SA change nothing about the FA facts.
Finally, all your whining about how Pelut is getting bashed on is pretty lame. PELUT is the one who put up this travesty and called it A6+. HE is the one that based that absurd rating off of the LONG-debunked rating of Intifada, and he SHOULD have known that that ancient Intifada rating was laughable. And HE is the one that drilled hundreds and hundreds of holes up the Titan. So, he can face the music on all those points. Your whining about him having to face the music is pathetic.
Just stop it.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Where are the PowerPoint graphics?
You need some sketches to elucidate your points. Lots of them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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Regarding the very first bolt I drilled....
raymond phule: Hard to say because Richard was soloing and thus needed a belay at the bottom. I have no idea if there where any other alternative for a rope solo belay there.
Pelut's picture of that first hole is extremely disingenuous, and he says, "Try anchoring to a tree."
What's really there is a long series of slabs (about 30-degree angle) for about 150 feet from the base of the wall. These increase in angle as they approach the base and become covered with scree and dirt. Small bushes are growing here and there in the dirt. Within 40 feet of the base the angle steepens considerably, and you can't easily get up it (it keeps sliding). And within the last 20 feet to the base is compacted aggregate at about a 60-degree angle. The only way you can get up that is "free climbing" on these embedded rocks (which often come loose).
In Pelut's pic it looks like he is just standing there. But he's not. What he's "standing on" is some hole left from a dislodge rock in this 60-degree slope of aggregate.
And there's no "tree" to anchor to. If anybody can produce a pic of a "tree" within 80-feet of the vertical section of the wall, I'll apologize profusely for that hole. There is no such tree.
What there ARE are these few small bushes growing out of the sloped dirt ramp. And I did try to anchor with these, even though they are 40-feet and more from the base of the wall.
I set up a couple of elaborate anchoring schemes using equalized large rocks and these few bushes. But when one pulled out easily as I was trying to get a sling around the base of it, I finally just gave up the whole approach.
I was solo and needed a ground anchor. Pelut had Esther standing at the START of where the dirt slope gets steep... 40 feet below the start of the route. And that partly explains the short first pitch to the "hook anchor."
A soloist can get no good ground anchor and has no belayer standing 40 feet lower.
So, yes, I did indeed place a single 1/2-inch bolt where the wall actually starts. I placed it low, so I could use it for upward pull (as a soloist has to think about). I placed it low enough that I couldn't use it to reach up and get the first placement. And I intentionally placed a sleeve-anchor, so that anybody that cares to can simply unscrew and remove it, filling the hole if they want.
I didn't remove and fill the hole because I wasn't hiding anything. I placed the bolt, so I left it there for all the world to see, which is my approach to climbing. I'm not hiding anything.
RH: You can debate that hole all you want, but you thereby miss the important points. This or that particular hole (mine or Pelut's) is not what's at issue here. I don't nit-pick this or that particular hole (well, with the "hook anchor" as an exception, because THAT's what that anchor is about). I wouldn't be bashing on Pelut's route if it just had "some" holes I was able to bypass.
Honestly, I'm not into dissing on some route just because it's not "perfect" or has "more drilling" than might please me. I don't think there IS any "perfect" route, and some of climbing's GRAND MASTERS have done tons of drilling, enhancing, chipping, trenching, and so forth.
Those tactics, in general, are frowned upon BECAUSE they can be abused! And I will certainly bash on a route in which those tactics are ABUSED.
I mean that if somebody trenches ONE head in a bottomed seam (and leaves the head in place) to get to the next natural placement, and this saves a full-on bolt, I would be inclined to applaud that decision. MANY others will disagree. That's fine. Such disagreements keep us ALL honest!
I repeat, my (and many other's) angst with Pelut's tactics is that this or that particular hole or trench were not "isolated" incidents with a clear tactical purpose! Pelut JUST DRILLED! He drilled EVERYTHING. Even those first few heads he points to in his pic of the start of the route are trenches HE drilled. I just left heads in the trenches (for reasons I've explained already). He drilled and drilled and drilled. He drilled (often) every 18 inches (and sometimes closer than that!). He drilled ALL the way up. He drilled in unprecedented fashion! And then he sprayed to the world (including with outrageous videos) that what he had done was AWESOME and HARD... even giving the PILE the highest rating EVER given to an aid route.
So, we're not debating this or that particular hole!
What Pelut did on "Look Out" goes SO FAR BEYOND THE PALE of what has EVER been done (at least in this country) that it DESERVES a special measure of BASHING!
So, if you whine about Pelut getting "more" heat than others, you should OWN UP to the FACT that it's because what he DID is more worthy of heat than others!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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On the few routes I've soloed in the fishers, I'd just fill a haul bag full of rocks for my belay.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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RH: You keep coming back to the idea that I cannot be considered a credible "reporter" of what is on the route because I went up there DETERMINED in advance to "discredit Pelut."
Two responses:
First, my friends and family can attest to the FACT that this is not accurate. I was pretty sure that I was going to down-rate the route, because I just don't believe in A6, much less A6+. But I ALSO went up there prepared to die on the route. I see that Mark has recently posted here, so perhaps he'll hop on and verify some of the things he and I talked about as I was gearing up for the thing. As I've written, the first pitch looked fearsome, and I was taking it very seriously! I was SHOCKED at what I found on the route, and it took several pitches to convince me that what I found was just THE ROUTE rather than some "early mistakes" or something like that. My friends and family that engaged with me in a year of preparation will attest to the FACT that I did NOT go up there to "discredit Pelut."
Second, part of why I continued the ascent was TO see the whole story! If there was ANYTHING of merit on the route, I wanted to know it. I wanted to tell the WHOLE and REAL story, rather than just "discredit Pelut." In fact, HAD I wanted only to discredit Pelut, it would have made the most sense for me to quit after the first pitch. I could have then come down and claimed "all the knowledge of the route we need," which is, in fact, what some on this thread are arguing (such as rick d and (at times) Jeremy).
But a FULL SA needed to be done, so I'll get into that.
It's easy now to say that an SA should not have been "pushed" up the wall, since we know what a pile the "route" is all the way up. But we didn't know what a pile it was "all the way up" UNTIL the full SA. Now and only now do we know that there was nothing "worthy" on the whole thing.
So, to tactics.
Somewhere in (my) second pitch I started thinking, "Wow, this is shaping up to be a route that really needs chopping. But HOW do you 'chop' what is just a line of holes? And, what if there is something worthy higher up? Is there SOME way I can 'upgrade' this thing to make it better, so that if there's worthy stuff higher up, at least there's a sustainable start to getting there? CAN I come up with SOME way to hedge my bets against all possibilities?"
And now that the route has been SAed, it's clear that if any route ever needed a good chopping, this one is the one. So, HOW do you both ascend and "chop" a line of (mostly useless) holes?
Well, it's clear that one thing you DON'T do is re-drill those same holes to make them "better!"
I came to two answers:
First, you "obscure" the original route BY putting something in its place that renders the original entirely obsolete. That's why I started only "loosely" following the exact line of holes.
Second, what you put in its place acts as "scare quotes" around the original. You put up something HONEST that really calls attention to what the original WAS, while effectively "erasing" the original BY "obsoleting" it, meanwhile showing what even a "drilled route" could have been (and it COULD have been MUCH better than it was!).
So, I both found that there WAS nothing "worthy" higher up (although I kept that possibility in mind as I ascended), AND I ultimately obsoleted the original.
Now, in my mind, the "perfect" ending to the whole sordid story would be for some other team to now go up and fully ERASE the route by removing even my bolts. I now honestly believe (having seen the whole story) that a route in GOOD style CANNOT go through that section of the Titan. There's just not enough natural features to do a route that will not be HEAVILY drilling-dependent. So, no route should even be there, IMHO. A final "chopping" will be pretty easy to do. Except for the early rivets, I used sleeve-anchors as "rivets." They are easily removed, and those (small) holes will go away pretty quickly on that "rock."
There is a very nice rap-route there now (the two-bolt, chained system I left at my anchors). So, perhaps it's good to leave those two-bolt systems in place. And that's a nice place to "land" after you rap the Titan, as you end up just above the trail (nicer than rapping the other side). And, unlike the "existing" rap route on that side, mine is top-quality and will last for decades. But, whatever.
Or, the thing can be left in place. What I left is fully sustainable, and I did it with an eye to both speedy ascents and "comfortable" bivies. My two bivies have multiple bolts spread out to make for nice hangs. And all my anchors have large, long bolts (with at least one 1/2-incher), so NOBODY will EVER "need" to add holes to my anchors. So, the "route" is as bolted as it will EVER need to be. It's now a great moderate-aid and "clip up" that many might find fun to do. I don't know. What's the most "valuable" thing to do now?
I have no "attachment" to the route. So, I encourage anybody to "finish" the story by "chopping" even my bolts. Or, leave the retro-fitted thing in place as a statement to the next generation of the ambitious that Pelut's tactics will not be tolerated, and that we are GOING to know the truth! Either way, Pelut's "route" is effectively erased.
SOMEHOW the SA needed doing. ALL of it. Look at RH's attempts to get ANYTHING to stick to damage the credibility of the SA as it is. Had I bailed, Pelut would have yelled to the world: "Look! Just LOOK! My route BLEW even Jensen out of the saddle! Wow! Just as I said: hard, hard, HARD!"
Even now he's trying to float that I was "scared" into "having" to drill up the SA. On and on.... But, BECAUSE there is now a documented SA, all of such red-herring tactics have no real effect, because they change nothing about the facts of what the FA really was.
BECAUSE there is now a FULL SA, there can be no (real) debate about the objective facts of the FA. And I have no problem with "taking the heat" for my decision to finish the pile (and in better "style" than the FA).
My goal by about 1/3 of the way up became (in part) to show Pelut what he SHOULD have done, even if he WAS going to put up a heavily-drilled route. We'd still be complaining about the total number of holes. But we wouldn't be bashing on him as we now are. And he wouldn't have even tried to float some new, outrageous rating.
So, do what you wish with the route as it presently stands. Either way, the FA "route" is effectively erased, and its outrageous tactics are fully and credibly known.
Meanwhile, I suggest watching these two music videos... and to chill!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouZQ7rgAq-I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=hTdhXxxWREo
Female-fronted metal is the real deal (regardless of country of origin)!
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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On the few routes I've soloed in the fishers, I'd just fill a haul bag full of rocks for my belay.
That would work there too, if you want your bag sitting 60 to 80 feet down-slope from the start. Or, I guess you could dig out a big "shelf" in the slope. But people would moan about that too.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 25, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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if you want your bag sitting 60 to 80 feet down-slope from the start
Might be a good idea, more rope out, lower impact/fall factor, etc.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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Not too worried about the fall factor on that pitch, and wanted maximum rope to be able to actually get a full pitch.
The further down-slope you "anchor," the more "valid" you make that "hook anchor" appear. By anchoring AT the start of the route, the "hook anchor" is easily bypassed, because then you can easily make it to the good crack high on the pitch (which, by the way, is quite visible from the ground as a crack).
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 26, 2012 - 06:59am PT
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Crunch, did you have any thoughts about that first bolt in light of all of this?
Also, bump in hopes that David will read my post a few pages back, and because I just can't get enough of Rivet Hangar...
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