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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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simple things, really...
Q: when you look at a brick wall which fills your entire visual field, what do you see?
A: a continuous set of bricks
Q: you have visual blind spots in your eyes, so you actually can not see all the bricks, why then do you perceive them as continuous?
A:
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jstan
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
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http://www.theflickingfingers.com/bl_spot.html
Interesting reading on visual perception.
For instance the eye movements that go into recognizing a human face are plotted.
A substantial part of the energy budget for a resting human go into operation of the visual system.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Pretty damn good Rocky.
So destiny can not be changed without God.
Only he can guide and point the worm to the correct path at the crossroad.
Remember that movie about Robert Johnson (crude example) ....
edit. The discussion is so much better now instead of those retarded stupid posts like "Jesus saves at Bank of America" type liners for example.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Great question Ed. We want to be able to tell whether it's because the wall actually is continuous (we perceive truth), or because we perceive it as continuous (we perceive our perceptions), but we don't have enough information to tell the difference.
That sounds about right Rokjox. Sometimes I think we have the same free will as a water molecule in a cloud, which can chose to fall as rain, or as snow, or drift off as water vapor, or stay in the cloud. It doesn't seem like it choses, but maybe it does. It's choosing to rain right now - my 2 year old is choosing to play in it!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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the answer is we ignore the missing pieces in our perception...
What we perceive is a model of the wall, built on the expectation that it is continuous, which is a combination of what we are sensing and what we have experienced. The brain doesn't waste anytime worrying about something that isn't there in this case. But since you might have to perform an action that requires knowledge of the wall, your internal model of the wall serves as a way of planning the action.
Could be that our internal model is very wrong, and then the action would be inappropriate.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Rokjox said After all, how can you really have much of a choice if your path is completely unseeable by you? Flip a coin, the future's not OURS to see.
So our path is all laid out behind us. Great, we're snails.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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I agree - that's part of the answer that we perceive. We don't let the belief that we have incomplete information stop us from believing that we have knowledge, in any domain.
Do we perceive the model in our brain or do we perceive the wall in front of us?
Ignoring the missing information is part of the way that we accurately perceive the truth?
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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"Everyone blames Judas for Jesus death but he was a beloved disciple chosen by Christ..."
Yes, but Judas was with Jesus and saw all His miracles, lived with Him and hearing Him speak, still Judas could betray Him.
Jesus offers us all forgiveness and would forgive Judas as well. But Judas would have to come to Jesus and ask for forgiveness!
Luke 23:34, And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
John 12:3-8, Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. 7 Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. 8 For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
One of You Will Betray Me
John 13:21 After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. 23 One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table close to Jesus, 24 so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. 25 So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus
Mark 14:43-50, And immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. 44 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man. Seize him and lead him away under guard.” 45 And when he came, he went up to him at once and said, “Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 46 And they laid hands on him and seized him. 47 But one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. 48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the Scriptures be fulfilled.” 50 And they all left him and fled.
Judas to Betray Jesus
Matthew 26:14-16, Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity i to betray him.
20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve. 21 And as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” 23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus
47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man; seize him.” 49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.” Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.
Judas Hangs Himself
3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me.”
Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
Acts 1:12-26, Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. 13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
**“‘May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it’;
and
“‘Let another take his office.’**
21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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777
"Not "according to" me Karl, according to the Bible!! "
I'm saying your certainty about the details of Satan are not supported by details in the Bible, particularly if you throw out the book of Revelation, which you should, because it's NEVER clear and people are always lawyering wrong conclusions from it.
"Jesus states that Satan will be chained in the Lake of Fire for ever. He knows the final outcome, and states it as so. So I am reassured that Satan will at that point never again be given the opportunity to deceive mankind again."
Jesus said it, or you read it in Revelation? Funny how people talk on and on about free will and then postulate that everything is known in advance. Apparently God created Lucifer to be a top angel knowing he would rebel, create all this Hell, and never get saved. Who is worse in that scenario?
Lose your certainties. A careful reading of the Bible shows that Jesus and the apostles and Paul's crowd as well firmly believed and predicted that the kingdom of God was coming during their lifetimes. Times change.
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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When it comes to changing worldviews, the scientists, alongside vested government, industry, media and intellectual discourse can become the guardians to the gates of outmoded thinking.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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Cold fusion, Werner?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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Finally got a chance to view Ed's TED link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbWr3ODbAo
While I think it's great for folks to recognize the limits of our sense perception and understand the way our brain constructs and fills in information where it is suggested or implied, I have a hard time believing anybody considers this new information or believes it explains much about consciousness.
Senses and they way the mind interprets sense information is a very external manifestation of Awareness. Shut off every sense you are still conscious no? Senses are also limited within frequencies of light and sound, etc.
Thousands of years ago yogis were well aware of this stuff. The world is not as we see it. Something looks like a snake until someone explains that it's just a rope. Then we see the rope.
The school of thought that wants to maintain all our human Beingness is a side-effect of Neurons firing just haven't gone deep enough.
Sure, you can take circuits out of a TV set and prove a certain part of the TV controls the sound and another makes up the picture and that the image can be tweeked by the knobs and such. That proves nothing about the electromagnetic waves that the TV picks up to translate into images and sound. That doesn't show that those waves are everywhere, nor does it show about the parts of the electromagnetic spectrum that TVs can't be tuned to. When it comes to consciousness, we don't have equipment that fine yet.
Consciousness in the spiritual sense is like that. Pure consciousness is never the object of perception because it is eternally the subject, awareness itself, that witnesses all. Some would say consciousness becomes the mind by assuming the "shape" of the object perceived, but that form is not the thing itself.
Even Jesus says nobody can see God at any time. Why? The divine is the innermost thing, not some old codger in the sky. Sure people process everything with their brains. Perhaps that's how some people have had big inspirations and yet tainted it with their own foolishness.
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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monolith -- "Cold fusion, Werner?"
Actually infinite energy. You're sharp.
But!
How did this get in here????
Since there's no consciousness, no free will, no God, and just random chemicals swirling around in my head, it must have just accidentally big banged itself in here ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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that's one explanation, Werner...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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Karl- "throw out the book of Revelation".
Throw out "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"(which is the title, "Revelations" is an abbreviation). Because YOU don't understand it? And it condemns Satan to the Lake of Fire forever and ever? And it doesn't give your little buddy Satan a second chance of being saved? How convenient.
And lets see, you also would like to throw out about half of the remaining New Testament starting with Acts(The Acts of the Apostles)through Revelation! And how about the Old Testament? How about The Book of Daniel? Or Ezekiel? Or any of the other prophecy books because you don't understand them!
To begin with, angels do not have souls. They were not created in Gods image(certain moral, ethical and intellectual abilities). We were meant to reflect His majesty on earth, to "have dominion" rule as God's regent! That is, people are to rule as God would-wisely and prudently-over all that God has made(fish, birds, cattle and so on).
He breathed life into man, describes the infusion of the human spirit with its moral, intellectual, relational and spiritual capacities(along with an immortal soul). The breadth of life makes humans distinct from all other creatures(including angels).
Lucifer and all the other angels were created to worship and serve God. They know God and are already in Heaven in His presence. They do so out of love for Him. Satan lost that privilege and was cast out of the presents of God.
Man was created "for a little while lower than the angels"(obviously in power and physical closeness to God).
The early Cristian church went through some very trying times(persecution)and were reprimanded by Peter for anticipating an immediate return of the Lord "Dear friends don't ignore this fact, One day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord isn't slow to do what He promised as some people think. Rather He is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to Him and change the way they think and act." 2 Peter 3:8-9.
Jesus never said that He was going to return immediately, on the contrary "Nobody knows the time or the hour, only the Father..." etc.
He stated that the temple would be torn . And that it would be rebuilt and the "Abomination of Desolation" would take place in a rebuilt temple. That being the antichrist demanding to be worshipped there. Jesus quoted Daniel's prophecy! Declaring it as a fact that it would eventually occur. As with the Jews being scattered throughout the world, and returning to Israel. After two thousand years!
I would pay close attention to another prophecy made over two thousand years ago. That Iran(Persia changed its name to Iran in @1937)and Russia would form an alliance and attack Israel. This will be the next major war which will usher in the beginning of the Tribulation(seven year period).
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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Karl!
Who do you believe Jesus Christ is? Let me remind you that the "Christ" is a title. Both Christ and Messiah mean "The Anointed One" Obviously you do not consider Him to be God.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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All these discussions on various interpretations...
What makes you think whole of the various bibles (and apocrypha), the Qur’an, Vedas, and Sutras aren't all just anthropomorphic responses to the fear of the unknown. A quick look back through recorded time should tell you that rather than man being created in god's image, it is instead a very long list of gods we have created in our image throughout history. And how can one but marvel at the revelling conceit involved with one society after another throughout human history claiming only their god or gods are real.
Again, if you view life on Earth at any point in its history as simply a collection of the current expressions of a global gene pool then you realize that we humans, while a marvelous expression, are just that - an optimal expression of DNA for recent planetary conditions. 'Recent' being the key as Homo Sapiens have barely been around long enough to spit. And as just one of millions of current expressions of DNA on the planet today, I find the very idea of an anthropomorphized god or gods both childish and amusing in the extreme.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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"To begin with, angels do not have souls."
TripL7, I agree the book of Revelation is important, (although, in my opinion, wildly misinterpreted)
By what reasoning do you conclude Angels do not have souls ? Do you base this assumption on scripture? What is a soul ?
Hebrews 1:14 Are not all angels souls that serve Him--whom He sends out to render service for the benefit of those who will inherit salvation?
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