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MH2
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:21am PT
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Thanks, Ed, for the Dennet video.
He is good at exposition but I think he should have acknowledged that a lot of sensory processing gets done before the stage at which you notice changes in scenes, and it would help to know as much as possible about that processing before making detailed inferences about "consciousness" based on responses of the sort shown in the video. Any neurophysiologist working on vision should be well aware that vision seems simple to us, as we are experts in Dennet's terms, whereas in fact vision is damned complicated and still poorly understood. If we don't have a good understanding of how the brain uses binocular disparity and other cues to estimate distance, is it likely we can understand consciousness?
I would be very interested to hear what questions the top-down approach has answered. It's better role is probably to frame questions.
Raymond Smullyan: another philosopher/magician
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:40am PT
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HealyJ wrote
"...Ever since I have had absolutely no respect for the game board (christian) and gerbil wheel (hindu) explanations for life because they are implausibly cruel and inhuman. If an all-powerful sentient god existed - then there could be no acceptable excuse, rationale, or justification for this life..."
Don't you embrace an even harder, more painful, more dangerous life when you choose to go climbing. Maybe the intensity makes your feel yourself more keenly and teaches you something eh?
Face it, we can't see any big picture clearly enough to suppose the meaning of life arising from God's intent
Just as hard to image the scope of the universe and eternity even without any God. Our minds are blown once we get too far from our familiar environment
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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777 wrote
"Well, Satan doesn't want to be forgiven, he wants to be God.
Satan is evil incarnate. God and Satan could never exist together! A closet(with the door closed)can be either light or dark, not both at the same time.
He would not ever be happy being anything but worshipped as number 1. And destroying everything that God has created. In his insanity/pride he felt he could pull it off. And has had a fair amount of success in destroying/deceiving much of the creation. In his anger/bitterness, he wants to destroy all he can while there is still time."
This feels like a lot of Sunday school fire and brimstone superstition without much depth of scripture to back it up. God created this "Satan" according to you and he was a high angel but somehow changed and rebelled. If Satan can change thus, how are you to know he can't change back? You are saying God created him to be irrevocably evil? How would he be responsible then? It's been 2000-3000 years.
Believe that redemption is possible for all and you can have faith in it for yourself.
I don't know what to "believe" about the origin of this particular world but it's a wide open question. There is a couple schools of thought that say that our existence on this world was engineered by other more advanced beings that fall far short of being the ultimate creator. It's been a shakey experiment that's been allowed to happen just as human are "allowed" to build Zoos and breed animals in them. What that tells me is that we can't jump to assumptions about why this world seems a harsh dense reality.
Not saying I believe this but it's funny how something so simple could explain so much.
Here's my personal experience...What comes to me in life is a perfect reflection of emotions, attitudes and energy inside myself. When I change myself, everything changes around me. By navigating my own inner change with the world bringing me feedback and lessons, I feel like I'm in a hall of mirrors where what I'm seeing are aspects of myself. Since I worked through a lot of my own crap, life has got better and I'm happy in my heart, even as tough challenges seem to threaten important aspects of my life, I have faith that I'll find the answers within and move through it, just like I feel like some crack a few pitches up will take me to the top.
Thus speaking, the world seems like this no-holds-barred university of Life where our inner stuff visits us in outer events. Most people are just too defensive and not introspective enough to see that their life really does reflect the totality they hold within.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 05:56am PT
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I'd be interested if you could say a little more about why attributing the existence of good and evil to free will is an affront to decency and common sense.
I'd certainly be open to the suggestion that good & evil are a prerequisite to free will right after someone explains to me how the admittedly agonizing choice between the Bacon-Waffle Special and a Denver Omlette robs me of free will. I find the very suggestion that evil is somehow necessary to free will to be an indecent and corrupt proposition. I further find all attempts to shunt the ultimate responsibility for evil from a sentient, all-powerful god to be logically contrived and hopelessly delusional from the start. It simply withers in the face of common sense.
Don't you embrace an even harder, more painful, more dangerous life when you choose to go climbing.
Not at all, I embrace a much easier, more thoroughly enjoyable, and far safer life than before I climbed. Before climbing I was unaware bordering on subclinicly autistic, painfully shy, and had no measure of life's threats or risks.
Face it, we can't see any big picture clearly enough to suppose the meaning of life arising from God's intent
I have no requirement that life arose from anything but the probability of a random event. Why should intent have anything to do with it? I mean, what is the intent of a Avsunviroid or a Blue Whale - and why would I require intent to exist?
Just as hard to image the scope of the universe and eternity even without any God. Our minds are blown once we get too far from our familiar environment
You're projecting. I have no problem at all imaging the scope of the universe and eternity without god. And my mind isn't blown by the wonder of the unknown - it thrives on it - it's why I do FAs. Quite the contrary, what blows my mind is the out-of-the-park fantasies that the masses generate in the attempt to quell the waves of fear and doubt unanswered and unanswerable questions send roiling through most individuals and societies.
I say embrace the cold, infinite, unknowable abyss on its own terms without all the childish anthropomorphizing. Also, take a few genetics, microbiology, virology, mycology, and pathology classes and you'll see the world from a drastically different perspective and realize symbiotic viruses, fungi, and bacteria had and have as much or more to do with being human as any god. That being 'human' means we exist as a symbiotic composite of thousands of species working together as one. So if we are made in god's image, that would make him a highly composite entity as well.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 07:43am PT
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Karl- "this feels alot like Sunday school fire and brimstone without much depth. God created this Satan according to you...but somehow changed and rebelled...if Satan can change thus, perhaps he can change back."
Not "according to" me Karl, according to the Bible!!
And sure, we can dream up the possibility of any scenario we would like, or not like for that matter. But I am going by what I believe is the Word of God. Not something I heard in Sunday school or anywhere else. I personally read it in the Bible.
Jesus states that Satan will be chained in the Lake of Fire for ever. He knows the final outcome, and states it as so. So I am reassured that Satan will at that point never again be given the opportunity to deceive mankind again.
Lucifer was an an angel, created by God. He rebelled and took one third of the angels with him(actually they chose to follow him). They were given the ability to obey God or to refuse. Just as we are. He chose to rebel...plain and simple.
For those who will spend eternity in Heaven, that will be a welcomed truth.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 10:47am PT
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healyje, Well said. Your story and thoughts are similar to my own.
Ed, thanks fo the Dennett link. I always enjoy listening to him.
Still no answers to one of my original question - If god is all knowing, did he not see this coming or was the fall a complete surprise to him? It looks to me he simply let it happen. If it was a surprise, he is not all knowing. Which is it?
If he knew, he sure has allowed an unpadonable amount of pain to be inflictedon the world. He has control of the dials. Why not turn down the hurt. Create a world free of murder and war, fewer and less intense crop failures, or maybe less lethal diseases? The guy appears to be a real sadist.
If he didn't know, he's not all knowing.
This thread has broken down into too much counting of how many angels can fit on the tip of a needle.
Long live Ardi!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Now what if "free will" isn't really what we think it is.... our ideas of how consciousness works, and our conception of free will may just be a misunderstanding.
What evidence do we have of free will?
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 12, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Actually, bc, God is not "in control of the dial" of planet Earth. After creation, He never was...He turned that control over to humans. He created it in perfection, without war, disease, death, etc. WE then turned that control over to Satan, and he introduced decay, death, etc. Satan is in control of the dial, and he is the cause of all the wars, famine, disease, etc.
Romans 8:20:"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it. (Satan)"
As for did God know...of course He did. Why did He do it anyway? HOPE.
Let's say you are considering becoming a parent. Do you think about the intense physical agony your wife will endure during childbirth? Do you think about the stab of fear that will penetrate your heart when the child goes to school for the first time, is late for dinner, asks to borrow the car, goes away to college? Do you dwell on the fact that children often don't turn out the way we expected, that they cause us incredible emotional pain, financial strain, or can have something terrible happen to them?
NO, you think about the joy of creating a new life out of the union of yourself and your spouse, about the feeling you will have the first time you hold that tiny baby and look into his eyes. You think about the feelings of awe and pride you will have when you watch your child pick flowers, learn to climb, learn to experience life. Do you expect some agonies, some disappointments? Of course. Do you know that your child will experience suffering in this life? Of course you do. Do you decide not to have a child because you don't want to cause them suffering?
In the midst of all the ills of the world, God gave us a way to hope...He gave us Himself. He gives us Himself and He gives us perspective on the ills of the world.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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As for did God know...of course He did. Why did He do it anyway? HOPE.
Knowing Satan and all the accompanying evils would commence, he knew.
He did it for "hope". What a dick.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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Actually, bc, God is not "in control of the dial" of planet Earth. After creation, He never was...He turned that control over to humans.
So why bother praying?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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Heh heh heh good one bc
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
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You don't read very well do ya Skip?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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That's exactly what I saw too.
Skip, you're gonna bury yourself with that kind of answer.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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control and helping when asked are not the same thing.) So he doesn't control things, but may or may not be there when asked? If he actually helps when asked, his record is pretty poor.
All I was asking was, if god created everything, why couldn't he have created a little less destructive reality? Especially since he saw it coming. A little more stable earth, less destructive disease, etc.
And if he really just started the ball rolling and is not involved in the day to day suffering of the people he created (as Bronwyn's post suggests), why pray if he will not be there to help?
I'll post this again because I think it applies.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
— Epicurus
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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What evidence do we have of free will?
Isn't that the same as all of our evidence - our shared perceptions?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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perception is not evidence... we perceive all sorts of things that are not real.
It is possible that we have a large, but countable number of choices, and if these are able to be combined in different situations, it would seem a very large number of choices gives the illusion of an infinite number of choices. So what if what we perceive as free will is really only this combinatorics of a limited set of choices applied to various situations.
It wouldn't be Free Will, but it would be close enough to satisfy our need to believe we have choice. It would not be the gift spoken of above, the ineffable quality... but rather the result of an evolutionary process built up over a large time period.
Doesn't that make more sense?
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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Yes, I do perceive that we're finite beings. But isn't the basis of science that we can repeat an experiment and perceive the same results?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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generally we would require an objective measure, some quantification, rather than a subjective measure... this is where it gets really complicated, but not impossible... studying cognitive processes quantitatively has been going on for a while.
so your subjective experience is only the very beginning of understanding... and perhaps the universal perceptions the first indication that we have only a limited set of choices... what is a "universal sense of the spiritual" may prove only to be the limitations of our set of choices.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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How do we measure an objective difference? With our perceptions?
Do you mean that there are a finite set of choices, or is it a different flavor of infinite - like the difference between the unconstrained infinite number of real numbers between 0 and infinity, and the constrained infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1?
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