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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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my, my, haven't our discussions become abbreviated, I like the economy of it...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Speaking of forgiveness. I'm sure that I've said something or another to offend believer or scientist alike on this thread. We tread on our cherished believes and perspectives.
I'd like to apologize for any offense or hurt I've caused. I wish everyone the Love and Inspiration that carries them closer to the truth (which only God or Nobody knows) and that they have a epic wondrous journey on that path
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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perhaps if you are seeking absolute truth, but that cannot be known in life with any assurance
You just made your own absolute.
So you are greater than material nature?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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So can a Christian answer this - Did God create Satan?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
Maybe a non-Christian can, too, since God is supposed to have created thinking beings with free will, or the ability to choose between good and evil, because to do otherwise would have been counter to his supposed ethic of autonomy, and resulted in a world devoid of strife, where the concept of good would be meaningless as there was no evil to contrast it with.
So God in his wisdom gave us ST to bicker on.
Satan chose evil better than most.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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poor choice of words, perhaps... but you're right that it is stated as an absolute... a great deal of what religion is about is what happens in death... how do we know? different religions treat this differently... and some religions have us recycling through life again....
What am I? material, and the material I have created...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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I'm with Ed in being amazed that medieval scholasticism is so alive and well in 21st century America. However, it seems a bit of chronology is in order.
Buddha, Confucius, Socrates and Zoroaster all existed about 500 B.C. Why great philosophers should arise in different parts of the world is an unsolved and ever interesting question.
While some of their ideas were much older, especially if borrowed from Hinduism and Taoism in the East and the Jewish, Sumerian, Persian, and Egyptian traditions in the West, the major scriptures of the world were still mostly written in the 500 B.C. to 300 A.D. time frame. Islam of course came later, in the late 600's A.D.
That's still a long time ago and far removed from modern life.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Warbler- "Do Christians fear Satan, or only God?"
Good questions Kevin!
"You shall fear only the Lord your God" Deuteronomy 6:13(NASV).
"Fear not, for I am with you always says the Lord". And there are many more similar verses.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell for ever." Matthew 10:28.
"My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes I say to you, fear Him." Luke 12:4. Good advice from Jesus Christ!
God has no fear of Satan. He created him and new the outcome! Jesus already crushed Satan at the cross. Satan has been defeated.
Kevin- "Does He have any other characteristics of men?"
I was speaking of one attribute of God Love.
And yes there are other characteristics which we share along with to be loved, such as trust. He is Spirit and He gave us a soul/spirit when He breathed life into man. He can be grieved. And He certainly has a sense of humor, that many of us can attest to. He loves music, and being worshipped through music(King David was a musician). Those are just a few that come to mind and there are many others.
When He came to earth He experienced all the emotions/feelings/hurt and pain that we go through without sin(such as anger). One reason He did this was so we could relate to Him knowing that He has experienced, first hand all that we have. And He does love and consider all of us His children.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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On the science side, I just received an announcement that the Obama administration is asking for public input on how much federally funded research should be put online. I know my anthropology classes and I have benefitted a lot from the free abstracts and papers available on DNA research available through the National Institute of Health.
Policy Forum on Public Access to Federally Funded Research: Implementation
http://www.whitehouse.gov/open
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Karl!
I can only think of it as an honor to have gotten to know you a little here and have learned alot from you! Also enjoy your TR's and photography and stories. Hope you continue to do so, and thanks for putting up with me!
Peace and Love, Trip~
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Karl- "perhaps one day he can be forgiven and redeemed".
That brings to mind a close friend asking me once "Why doesn't God just forgive Satan and everything will be OK?"
Well, Satan doesn't want to be forgiven, he wants to be God.
Satan is evil incarnate. God and Satan could never exist together! A closet(with the door closed)can be either light or dark, not both at the same time.
He would not ever be happy being anything but worshipped as number 1. And destroying everything that God has created. In his insanity/pride he felt he could pull it off. And has had a fair amount of success in destroying/deceiving much of the creation. In his anger/bitterness, he wants to destroy all he can while there is still time.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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So bizarre to me.
It's like you're having a serious conversation about the nature of Santa's reindeer.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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In my opinion, man should worry more about his own sinful nature that Satan "affecting him."
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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Karl,
I too always welcome your thoughts and insights and find them quite interesting and thought-provoking.
I agree with you that Judas was forgiven.
And Warbler, the answer is NO, Christians do not fear Satan. We can see how he operates, we can be aware of his schemes, but no, we don't fear him.
(Sorry...I guess the one-word answer you requested just looked a little terse on-screen!)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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hey there say all... wow, i never get in here, or maybe once? ... but it is so HUGE-grown-a-thread, that i had to come see how all this is going...
well, got to run... i am in the midst of some projects and am STILL trying to go see all the trip reports...
wow, i am running wayyyyyyyyyyy behind, here at ol' supertopo...
well, have it all, you all... i will come take a visit, again, much much later...
god bless... :)
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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Ed, just watching that video now....
I like how he says we each think we are experts on our own consciousness.
"each of us thinks ...."I am an expert."
I wonder why that is?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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micronut- "in my opinion man should worry about his own sinful nature than Satan "affecting him".
I agree 100%.
The original post and my response to it(4am) was in regards to "bacteria" and the introduction of evil into the world...etc. And continued well after my post(I then logged off at 4am) and did not log back on until after 8pm this evening.
Satan(his demonic angels) can not "make" anyone do anything. He works through thoughts/suggestions that can result in bitterness, anger etc. If we are so disposed and choose to act/follow them they can result in evil consequences. So the devil rarely makes people do anything, we have the choice to act or not on those impulses.
But as micronut suggests, we have our own sinful nature(anger, bitterness, greed, envy, slander, gluttony,strife, despair, hate,selfishness, racism)etc,etc. That is the cause for much of what is wrong with the world today.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 12, 2009 - 02:53am PT
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Warbler- "Is that because God could force their soul to spend eternity with Satan?"
I became a Christian at eight, and it had nothing to do with being forced to spend eternity with Satan. As a matter of fact my life was about to end within minutes, and I called out to Jesus to help me.
We do not fear God in the way you would fear, lets say, the godfather if you were a lieutenant or soldier in the mafia. As a matter of fact the word fear in the context of the quotes I gave you up-thread are closer to the meaning of holding Him in awe/reverence/respect. And have been defined as so by those who have translated the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic text of the word.
Also, as I am sure you have heard, you cannot lose your salvation, and therefore would not be a rational reason to fear God.
Although disobedience does have its consequences. But you should obey God out of love not fear.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2009 - 03:10am PT
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At twelve I completely rejected the notion of god after reversing the logic of 'man was made in god's image'. I vividly remember thinking that if I'm made in god's image, then just how the f*#k is it that I wouldn't have done life on earth even remotely the way he did. I had a lot of doubts before that day, but that cemented a total rejection of the whole notion of a conscience god.
Ever since I have had absolutely no respect for the game board (christian) and gerbil wheel (hindu) explanations for life because they are implausibly cruel and inhuman. If an all-powerful sentient god existed - then there could be no acceptable excuse, rationale, or justification for this life. And in particular, I find the 'good & evil' / 'free will' argument such an infantile and affronting insult to decency, logic, and common sense as to almost preclude the very concept of empathy.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 12, 2009 - 04:01am PT
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I find the 'good & evil' / 'free will' argument such an infantile and affronting insult to decency, logic, and common sense as to almost preclude the very concept of empathy.
That's quite interesting and the sort of viewpoint that makes me interested in this thread. I think I see what you mean but am not sure. Your rejection of God seemed to hinge on the fact that our world does not show enough evidence of a compassionate or empathetic creator. However, God may not be of a benevolent disposition, or could be benevolent but still have good reason not to intervene in affairs of this world.
Although the free will 'argument' seems as though it could account for Man's inhumanity to Man, the occurrence of natural disasters like hurricanes is pretty good evidence that any God out there doesn't care that much about the fates of individual humans.
I'd be interested if you could say a little more about why attributing the existence of good and evil to free will is an affront to decency and common sense.
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