Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout

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WBraun

climber

Dec 11, 2009 - 07:14pm PT

subspeciation

What is this word and it's meaning?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Dec 11, 2009 - 07:16pm PT

People on SuperTopo are in a way subspeciated - we're human beings, and climbers, who rarely seem to agree about anything.

Edit: In biological terms, I think it means a species that is subdivided into groups with distinct characteristics, but which can still interbreed and produce fertile offspring. But I'm not a biologist.

WBraun

climber

Dec 11, 2009 - 07:17pm PT

Ok, that makes sense Anders.

Thanks

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Dec 11, 2009 - 07:31pm PT

close enough....

Bronwyn

Trad climber

Not of This World

Dec 11, 2009 - 07:36pm PT

You caught me there Healy, I meant to type Lucifer was NEVER told to prostrate before man.

Gobee

Trad climber

Los Angeles

Dec 11, 2009 - 08:11pm PT

"Christians, Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong) don't believe man and animals are the same, or that we are animals. This is evidenced most strongly in their rejection of evolution."

My last post was 4020 now it's 4110!

TripL7, Robb, and Bronwyn said some good things in their post!

I called my church, and asked if animals have souls?

I didn't get a complete answer but Tim said in Genesis 1:27...

***So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.***

In God's creation;

Day#3 dry land Earth, Seas, vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees

Day#4 “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.”

Day#5 Fish and birds

Day #6 “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.”

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them

It progressed to Man!

"And the difference btw Lucifer and Satan is....?"

The Devil wanted to be God!

The Temptation of Jesus, in Matthew 4:
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’

and

“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”

Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,

“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

Isaiah 11:6-9, The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

I'm on 8 hour shifts because of the rain, so I don't know when I can chime in!

Late, Gobee

cintune

climber

the Moon and Antarctica

Dec 11, 2009 - 08:25pm PT

Here's the scoop on Healy's question. It's a Muslim story, not a Judeo-Christian one:

http://al-shairan.livejournal.com/

**In contrast with the Christian tradition, the Qur'an names Iblis as a jinn rather than an angel. The Jinn are one of three Intelligent races created by God, and are created from smokeless fire, and in the Islamic tradition are considered to have free will; in Islam, angels are seen as messengers who do not possess free will.

Iblis was given high regard, close to that of the angels by God, because he was at one point a pious and humble jinn. When God commanded all of the angels and Jinn to bow down before Adam (the first Human), Iblis, full of hubris, jealously refused to obey God's command (seeing Adam as being inferior in creation do to him being created from mud).

And We created you (humans), then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who made prostration. He (Allah) said: "What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee?" (Iblis) said: "I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud". Qur'an 7:11-12

It was after this that he was given the title of "Shaitan" which can be roughly translated as "Evil" or "Devil". He then claims that if the punishment for his act of disobedience is to be delayed until the day of Judgment, he will divert many of Adam's own descendants from the strait path during his period of respite. God accepts the claims of Iblis and guarantees recompense to Iblis and his followers in the form of Hellfire. God, to test mankind and jinn alike, allowed Iblis to roam the earth to attempt to convert others away from Gods Path.

He was sent to earth along with Adam and Eve, after eventually luring them into eating the fruit from the forbidden tree.**

Bronwyn

Trad climber

Not of This World

Dec 11, 2009 - 09:19pm PT

According to Revelation, Satan and his followers are not currently in hell, they are currently active on Earth. Satan will not be thrown into the "Lake of Fire" until later in history, after the final battle between good and evil. Satan is not in hell yet, but he knows it is waiting and wants to corrupt and take as many people with him as he can.

Gobee, you said you called your church and spoke to Tim...is this Tim C of RLA?

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago

Dec 11, 2009 - 10:54pm PT

WELL!!

Fourteen+ hours ago I followed up a statement by healyje in regards to bacteria and some of its negative consequences. And followed with the suggestion that the fall of man had opened the door for evil to enter into their lives(Adam and Eve) and the world. Which God had given them dominion of "let them have dominion of the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, over the cattle, over all the earth..." Genesis 1:26.

After all, they had partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good AND EVIL!! They new good, ALL was good. And God had asked them one simple request, to NOT partake of .... And of course God knew what it would unleash. None of us can fathom the sadness that he must have felt. But He had to give mankind the option of who they would love/serve, believe and obey.

And they chose to believe a mere creature, a crafty one at that. For they were deceived by this snake "You shall be like the most high God...". Interesting claim that Satan lured Eve by, the very same claim that got him booted from the highest office of the angels of heaven "You were the seal of perfection. Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the Garden of God... You were the anointed cherub who covers"(Lucifer covered the throne of God/was given the honor of being the closest to God).

But that was not good enough(and I have left out much of what Lucifer was given control of, the other angels for one, they all looked up to Lucifer). But Lucfer wasn't satisfied with his position, and in his pride "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor". Lucifer said "I will be like the most high God" he determined to rise above and usurp God.

Adam relinquished his domain and Satan "became the ruler of this world". And he(Satan)obviously hates God and hates all mankind, since we are created in God's image.

Like I was beginning to say, I logged off around 4AM this morning, and after a long day, just logged back on an was surprised at all the commotion and questions that one simple suggestion would stir-up in the hearts and minds of intelligent men and women. That a mere created being(which Satan is)could create such hell(in reality, it isn't even close to what Hell will be like for Satan)here on earth.

The fact of the matter is, Satan loves to see God being blamed for what man initiated, when he gave Satan the authority to rule this world.

WBraun

climber

Dec 11, 2009 - 11:03pm PT

Ok here's a tough one?

If God asks you to kill your brother would you do it?

WBraun

climber

Dec 11, 2009 - 11:09pm PT

Human sacrifice?

You're skirting around the question ....

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago

Dec 11, 2009 - 11:10pm PT

bc- "Why does God allow Satan to exist?"

God created angels with the ability to reject(obviously)or to respect, love and serve their Creator, God. If God would have destroyed Satan, the angels would have served God out of fear not love. God, just like man created in His image, desires to be loved.

WBraun

climber

Dec 11, 2009 - 11:39pm PT

God would never say this.

Are you sure?

When advanced souls need to disappear from this earth, sometimes they kill each other to further bewilder those who reject that God exists.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 11, 2009 - 11:39pm PT

We make all these projections and assumptions.

Everyone blames Judas for Jesus death but he was a beloved disciple chosen by Christ who allegedly knew and accepted that he was going to get killed. I'm confident Judas is forgiven.

The evolution of ideas of Satan in the bible are inconsistent. If one of God's highest angels can fall, then someday perhaps he will be forgiven and redeemed. God made him right? We all have made similar rebellions.

We can hope.

PEace

Karl

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 11, 2009 - 11:53pm PT

Skip writes

"God does not ask man to make war."

In the Old Testament it is said that God planned the war to grab the promised land from the folks who already had it. Of course, it could just be a convenient belief from the guys who wrote the books afterwards. The book says God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child in the cities they were conquering to have a homeland.

I trust Love more than the books

Peace

Karl

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago

Dec 12, 2009 - 12:03am PT

Werner!

What Skip was saying is that blood sacrifice is no longer required, the blood of an unblemished lamb. Abraham, being "the one called from the nations" had a very special and privileged position amongst mankind. He new God, and received Isaac as a miracle at 100 yrs. old(Sarah was 80). And God had spoken to him on many occasions. He new God and feared(was in awe of)God. He new the consequences of not following God(Ishmael was a consequence).

God new the outcome. And Abraham had faith that He would provide a nation "that numbered more than the stars..." from his loins, through Isaac. And could raise up Isaac from death.

This is a story/precursor of what God was going to do with His Son Jesus, at the very same spot that Jesus was in fact crucified.

So skipt was saying that God would never ask us to kill someone. And I have already failed to obey many simple request made of me by God(many of the ten commandments for instance)since I have become a Christian. So it would not come as a surprise to God if I fail Him again. Lets just say that I am no where near the faithful servant that Abraham, Moses or Job etc. were.

I doubt if I have any more insight then Skip or any other Christians posting here. Unfortunately much of my insight has come from a lack of insight/faith/obedience over the years. If I would have simply read proverbs/scripture etc and had faith that God had a perfect plan for me, I would have fared much better.

Men of Abraham's faith are far and few between!

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Dec 12, 2009 - 12:12am PT

This exercise in scholasticism seems rather quaint... and has all the intellectual interest of watching hamsters run on their wheels...(karmic or otherwise)

In the end there is no resolution to how to interpret the Bible, or any other holy book, it is trying to infer some meaning out of the words and arguments of people long gone, writing in a context that would be difficult if not impossible to understand in our current world. The older parts of the bible date back to the 12 century BC.

These early texts are roughly around the time of the Buddha...

The Upanishads, dating back to the mid-first-millennium BCE... perhaps the same as Confucianism...

all ancient expressions of human belief that probably existed in some form early, but transmitted by other than written traditions.

All of these express an explanation for commonly held human experience, they are not the same explanation. But much of what is known is the product of a great deal of thinking on the part of people. What is most interesting is that all of these are essentially forms of "revealed wisdom" received by revelation from the godhead.

Believe what you want.... that is certainly your right... and while there is much wisdom in these writings capturing the legacy of human experience, arguing angelology is truly medieval, and to my mind a bizarre distraction from the important lessons that these religions propagate from the earliest of human times.

I reject the argument that the validity of these religious texts depends on their being true in their entirety. That point of view seems so completely strange to me... perhaps if you are seeking absolute truth, but that cannot be known in life with any assurance (I know many will disagree).

What is it about our need to explain things that leads to the creation of the multiplicity of parallel worlds whose inhabitants poses the supernatural powers to determine our existence and fate eternally?

It almost seems harmless enough until two opposing ideas of truth come in conflict... with the belief that one's view of eternity is The Truth, what stops the followers from seeking their eternal reward. As they say, all hell breaks loose.

To those who know The Truth, there is no reason to question it...
perhaps the real question is then: why do we need "The Truth"?