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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Healyje asked "Is it really 'free will' when your only choices are obedience and eternal damnation?"
Opinion:
I don't believe there is any eternal damnation except for those in chosen defiance and opposition to God (knowing fully the consequence) (The unpardonable sin is mentioned several times in the Bible and Midrash writing.) Some bible literalists will disagree with that opinion.
But aside from this "unpardonable sin" (which few even have the knowledge to tresspass), all divine punishment, all karmic debt is finite and comes to an end.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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So you think Lucifer's dilemma of prostrating before man was a matter of free will?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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It would seem to me that Lucifer enjoyed free agency throughout his career. He will be chained (spiritually) , which will seriously restrict his evil. He will continue to have freedom of agency but his powers will be nil. Again, my opinion.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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I think the term "obedience" may be somewhat misunderstood. Yes, there is obedience to God's law, such as not killing, not stealing, etc., which society generally deems to be necessary for people to co-exist in harmony. That would probably be termed "general obedience" (my terminology).
A believer's relationship to God is similar to a marriage. In a marriage, you know the duties and responsibilities expected of you as a partner, and out of love and respect for your partner you do your best to adhere to them. One of these expectations would be fidelity, another would be devoting time and attention to your partner. These are not seen as an impositition (at least I hope not!)but as a part of the love relationship, which allows that relationship to flourish and grow. Do I term these things as "obedience" in my marriage? I think of it more as obedience to the covenant I made to my spouse when we pledged ourselves to each other.
It is the same in my relationship with God. He askes for my faithfulness to Him. This is never a burden, any more than my faithfulness to my spouse would be; it is rather a joy. In return God freely gives of Himself to me.
God does not demand, or want, mindless robots. Jesus exhorted us to love God with "all of your mind", along with our hearts, etc. Obedience is not "blind" or even unquestioning. Abraham, Moses, Job, even Jesus, all checked in with God at various times.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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So, would that be a yes or no? If Lucifer's* only choice was to obey the command to prostrate himself before man or be cast into hell, I'm having a hard time spotting the 'free will' involved.
The whole 'free will' thing has always been curious to me. For instance, back in college I worked graveyard on the peds wing of a nursing home. I did my best to care for 50 infants every night, many of whom weren't going to live a month and very few of whom were going to live more than a year or two max. Wandering around the floor with three babies in my arms I'd wonder, "just where did 'free will' come into play for an infant born without most of its brain?" What was god's point? What's god trying to tell us with deadly congenital defects?
* Setting aside the fact Lucifer, angels, and being 'cast down' all pre-date christianity as ancient pagan constructs
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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What was god's point?
Good luck getting a straight answer on that one, healy.
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Lucifer was never told to prostrate himself before man. He was jealous because man was created in God's image (with a soul, with free will) which the angels did not have. Nowhere is it said that angels were told to bow to man. In most recorded angelic/human interactions, the human shows great respect to the angel. The angel does not defer to man.
Congenital defects, etc., are the result of the fall of man. This was not God's original intention, but the result of our turning over the rule of the earth to Satan. Satan hates human beings and will use any means he can to cause us harm. That being said, his power is limited. Skip's suggestion of reading Job is an excellent one.
As for where God is in all this...He works through human beings. In fact, as the person who held and comforted those children back in the pediatric ward so long ago, you were acting with the love and compassion of God. We are made in God's image. WE are to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the world until He comes again.
Do we still screw up? Of course we do. That is where grace comes in.
EDIT: sorry, should have said NEVER!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Sometimes a soul only needs to live in a mortal material body for a short period.
Just like some prisoners only are sentenced to jail for a few months, (crude example).
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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Sometimes a soul only needs to live in a mortal material body for a short period.
Just like some prisoners only are sentenced to jail for a few months, (crude example).
Werner sounds like you have read Lou Baldins "A day with an Extraterrestrial"
http://www.ufolou.com/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Yes, Werner, I know how your theology accounts for it, my question was for the christians.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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Joe, do you really think you're going to get a straight answer that isn't wrapped in layers of contradiction and irrationalization? I mean, good on ya for trying, but really...
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Congenital defects, etc., are the result of the fall of man. This was not God's original intention, but the result of our turning over the rule of the earth to Satan.
I'll ask again, if god is all knowing, did he not see this coming or was the fall a complete surprise to him? It looks to me he simply let it happen. If it was a surprise, he is not all knowing. Which is it?
Funny that generation upon generation of humans are made to suffer for the momentary foolishness of a pair of naked simpletons wandering about a garden containing a dangerous apple tree inhabited by a talking snake.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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cintune
I really believe now that you're just plain stupid.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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That's okay, lighten up, dude.
That's another problem with religion, no fecking sense of humor whatsoever.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Lucifer was ever told to prostrate himself before man.
I suspect most christian historians would disagree with that assertion.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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cintune
I didn't attribute anything to religion.
You're just plain stupid .....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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You really believe that.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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I don't subscribe to the Lucifer being ordered to prostrate himself story. This legend comes from Islamic (Haggada) and apochryphal writings, not accepted Christian canon. There is a Hebrew tradition that the first Archangel, Michael was Adam in his earthly sojourn. Pride was said to be Lucifer's principal weakness. Legends of Lucifer refusing to "bow" to more senior archangels may be metaphoric allusion to his excess pride and showing disrespect to other angels.
There's a prominent story in Jewish lore that Lucifer objected to God giving man free will and revolted, promising to corrupt humans with their free agency. The Talmud references several angels who joined Lucifer in this "crusade." I don't believe it says they were cast into hell but were forced outside the presence of God.
I prefer to use the term "free agency" rather than "free will". Free will may suggest the POWER to execute one's will in an omnipotent manner. I lack the power to deflect an comet on collision course with Earth. I may will it......but lacking the power you may argue I don't really have free will. Puritans with their hands and feet locked in stocks retained their free agency but were prevented executing any will they may have had to harm others. So did such devices abrogate free will ?
Do angels, fallen or not, have free agency? Yes.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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There are some seriuosly deep theological questions being asked. I'm glad to see it.
This is contraversial, I do not have scripture to back it up, it is my opinion, however, time-lines do have to work out in all ways. I've said before I'm a Theistic Evolutionist.
I think the fall of Lucifer happened long before first modern man, Adam and Eve ever showed up on the scene. I think it could have been billions of years to millions of years before modern man (Adam and Eve) showed up on the scene. Sin entered creation when Lucifer thought himself better than GOD, and a third of the Angels followed and rebelled against GOD. I also think they had access to and could have had their Angelic civilizations and places of abode on formely habital planets like Mars.
See David Flynn's website particularly the articles on Mars:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/
http://www.mt.net/%7Ewatcher/angelicconspiracy.html
http://www.mt.net/%7Ewatcher/ufos.html
"AND I DESTROYED YOU, OH COVERING CHERUB,
FROM AMONG THE STONES OF FIRE...
thus I brought a fire from your midst" (Ezekiel 28)
(Covering Cherub refers to Lucifer. That was his job before his fall, he was the Cherub that watched over and covered the throne of GOD. He was the most beautifal of all the Angels.)
When Satan rebelled, God cast him as profane from the height of heaven. Because of his rebellion, Satan was destroyed from the midst of the STONES OF FIRE, the planets, where he had reigned over literal physical kingdoms. Evidence of the civilization on Mars can still be seen, while another civilization of B'nai ha Elohim was destroyed thoroughly, becoming the asteroid belt. It is not surprising that a two-faced Sphinx has been found amongst the ruins of Mars. Lucifer is the most powerful Cherubim, and the Biblical description of a cherub can be illustrated by a Sphinx. David Flynn's research into Bible references of Satan & Cherubim on Literal Planets - THE STONES OF FIRE.
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/stones.html
The evidence there is a city within Cydonia on Mars is pretty darn good. See the book, "Dark Mission: the secret history of NASA" by Richard Hoaglend and Mike Bara. We even have remote sensing imagery (ground penetrating) from NASA and Russia that indicates a massive patchwork of artificiallity of streets and buildings and a region laid out like an agricultural pattern, as it looks below the sands of Mars in that region. The bible makes references to GOD destroying an abode of Angels, and I believe this happened after Lucifer fell from grace, and took 33.3333% of the Angels with him. There may have been a 5th planet that was destroyed by GOD as a result and the outfall of that also took out the civilization on Mars, removing its ocean and atmosphere by massive impacts, what we now think happened to Mars, and then this debri from a destroyed 5th planet became the asteroid belt.
We now know Mars was much more habitable in its distant past, with an ocean and perhaps an atmosphere. It certainly could have more likely had life on it then, if not even now (at least in microbial form). I think we are just barely able to make out some of the truth of all of this now. Seems pieces of the puzzle are coming together in a very big way.
Angels have freedom of choice or they couldn't turn against GOD.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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So, from all this I gather the inability to come to any agreement on the basic storylines involved with the evolution of pagan myth into large numbers of modern biblical interpretations is what gives rise to phone book page after page of continuous denominal subspeciation.
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