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Norton
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2016 - 10:52am PT
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Things might be OK for you & me, but for a large segment of the population, mainly working class people, their standard of living continued to decline under Obama.
I still, after seven years of Obama being President, have pot holes in my street.
Therefore, Obama has not done enough for me, he has failed me and other like me.
Can we get real? Presidents do not make law, congress does, and congress has not sent any legislation to President Obama to sign raises their "standard of living".
Oops, forgot the big one, the Healthcare Law, which did, directly, and without question raise the stand of living of tens of millions of Americans. Forgot the Lilly Fair Pay Act, which also improved the "standard of living" for my Americans.
But you say the Healthcare Act really should be not credited to Obama or the congressional Democrats? really? Because a conservative think tank, many years ago, had the idea of some parts of the law, like making healthcare mandatory.
But then, after eight years of President Bush, nothing, not even simple "tort reform" got passed and yes it took a Democratic Congress and President to get it done.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2016 - 11:10am PT
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Dingus posted I don't think top-down=-socialist-revolution is going to get off the ground. Its gotta happen at the precinct level, bottom up.
Ironically, this has been Sanders' message all along. Why he's not taking his own advice I'm not clear and why his supporters aren't smart enough to realize it I don't get either. Sanders is absolutely correct in saying that nothing he's pitching happens without a political revolution. Packing an arena for a Sanders event isn't any more of a revolution than a Phish concert.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tuolumne posted And lets not get too crazy about the ACA....this was a Heritage Foundation, Conservative Think Tank, idea. It is a big boom for the Health Care insurance companies. As you point out Hillary will preserve the status quo and opportunities for working class people will continue to decline.
So the reality was either this or continuing to have tens of millions more people with no real access to healthcare. You appear to favor ideological purity over progress which means you'd rather have nothing at all than help millions of people to the extent to which you can. Presumably this is because you weren't one of the millions of pre-ACA people who couldn't get or afford coverage due to a preexisting condition. There are plenty of things about the ACA that need improvement, but having a major element of it originally conceived of by the Heritage Foundation is not one of them.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 18, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
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Wow you Hillaryphiles must be getting nervous.
I'm still struggling with what it is you guys find so appealing about a Hillary presidency...at least, it's not a Republican?
The fact (or I guess I should say my belief that it is a fact) that Hillary is the only candidate with a serious chance of winning and not being a complete disaster as president is grim. And yes I am nervous. Hillary is extremely unpopular. I think her chances versus Trump or Cruz are very good but hardly 100%. If you aren't scared, you aren't paying attention. I think Sanders would be a worse version of Carter and I think Sanders is far less electable in the general. Anything that increases the chances of Trump/Cruz is bad.
I also think it is very likely that Hillary will get the democratic nomination in 2020 and that she will also be even more unpopular. (It is extremely difficult to take the presidential nomination away from an incumbent.) In 2020, I'm not sure she will even be able to beat a Cruz or Trump like candidate. That is even more grim...
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 18, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
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My thoughts too, August.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2016 - 01:52pm PT
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Americans are so gawd damn stupid they vote for unqualified POTUS.
None of of the candidates are any good.
But the loonatic stupid Americans will still vote the worthless fools to be their leader.
They have no brains to throw them out and get real leader.
Because Americans are just plain stooopid .....
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
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To me he is like Trump, just on the other extreme side, promising things he know he can never get done (built a wall, deport 11 million Trump/free college free healthcare Sanders) so my vote is with Hillary.
Exactly, Bob. The Trump supporters' next choice is probably Bernie. The Trumpians believe that the economic world is a zero-sum game, just like the Berners. The Trump supporters believe that the system is rigged, even though 63% of Republicans have already voted against him, and every electoral subgoup - including Republicans - has a higher unfavorable than favorable evaluation of him. The Trumpians like the idea that he doesn't need to raise money for a campaign, so they distrust the idea that a candidate should be required to get financial support for his position, just like the Berners.
As everyone knows, I'm no Democrat, but I would vote for Hillary over Trump. For all her faults, she at least demonstrates political realism, and is qualified, in my opinion, to be President. If the contest were Bernie vs. Trump, I would vote for neither.
And just like Trump, Bernie's loyalty is to himself, not to his party. As one knowledgeable columnist wrote, both the Trumpians and the Berners tend to be younger than the supporters of the other candidates in their respective parties, hence the title of his column: "The Young And The Clueless."
John
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
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August, let me paint a somewhat less grim picture....
Hillary wins NY tomorrow and pretty much seals the deal. She goes on to win the nomination. Bernie supporters aren't happy, of course. Lots of talk of not voting or supporting a Green candidate like Jill Stein.
By the Dem convention in late-July, things have simmered down. Bernie calls for calm and unity. The convention is a model of decorum compared to the GOP circus in Cleveland the week before. Hillary comes out of the convention with improved poll numbers as Democrats coalesce.
Granted, 40% of the country hates her and always will. They've had 25 years of the GOP anti-Clinton noise machine grinding away at them. Republican fears are about to be realized: Hillary Clinton in the White House. Another Clinton - and a woman, to boot!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
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We survived Bush, we will do well under Hillary. The woman like her or not is the most experienced and qualified in the bunch to be the POTUS.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:35pm PT
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Well John I am certainly not young and I really don't feel clueless and I have a hard time with your reference statement that Bernie's loyalty is to himself? Now that sounds like a clueless statement to me.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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The woman like her or not is the most experienced and qualified in the bunch to be the POTUS.
Yes she's very experienced to lead the insane to more insanity .....
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 18, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
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How qualified do you need to be to grow government?
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 18, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
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We survived Bush, we will do well under Hillary. OMG what an incredible endorsement.
And just like Trump, Bernie's loyalty is to himself, not to his party. Another ludicrous statement. Anyone who says that the pathological liar egomaniac Trump is like Bernie has no credibility.
What crankster posted ^^^ is probably not that far off.
For what they're worth, most of the polls indicate that Bernie does better VS any of the Republicans than Hillary.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 18, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
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Crankster writes:
"By the Dem convention in late-July, things have simmered down. Bernie calls for calm and unity. The convention is a model of decorum..."
So all that "revolution" sh#t from Sanders was just drunk talk or something, and what the Democrats really want to advance is a continuation of the old way of doing things?
That's going to be a tough sell in a year when the voters are rejecting The Establishment.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Apr 18, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
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By comparison to the GOP convention, specifically. There will be discord and behind the scenes fist pounding amongst Dems, for sure. Bernie will have won the right for party platform concessions.
Revolution? I doubt it. Progressive change? Sure.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 18, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Bernie calls for calm and unity. Not sure how Bernie will respond if he does not win the nomination. My impression is that he wants to keep the "revolution" alive in the form of grass roots movements in support of working class people but I agree this will be very difficult.
That's going to be a tough sell in a year when the voters are rejecting The Establishment. I agree...although most of the posters on this thread seem to want to perpetuate The Establishment.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 18, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
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Lets not get too hung up on the word "revolution" just like people are getting overly hung up on the "S" word...Bernie has never advocated violent overthrow of the established order. He wants to speak truth to power. He wants to be an advocate for the less fortunate.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 18, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
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You can't be a revolutionary in April, and then decide you want to feed The Machine in July. Sanders doesn't strike me as being that guy.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 18, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
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Isn't that basically what Obama did? Hope and change turned into more of the same for working class people.
Sanders doesn't strike me of being that guy You mean he's sincere about following through with his "revolution" even if he doesn't get the nomination? So Chaz are you saying Bernie will take it to the streets and disrupt the Demo convention "68 Chicago style" if he doesn't get the nomination? Serious question. To be honest, I'm not sure how far he's willing to take this. Maybe he's planting the seeds for future movements if this one is not successful. Hard to say. Let's see what happens tomorrow.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 18, 2016 - 04:07pm PT
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I hope Bernie runs as an independent - 'cause then he will win
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 18, 2016 - 07:04pm PT
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Missed this one earlier...HighDesertDJ said
So the reality was either this or continuing to have tens of millions more people with no real access to healthcare. You appear to favor ideological purity over progress which means you'd rather have nothing at all than help millions of people to the extent to which you can. Presumably this is because you weren't one of the millions of pre-ACA people who couldn't get or afford coverage due to a preexisting condition.
I agree that ACA is a step in the right direction and millions more now have health insurance that didn't before, especially people with pre-existing conditions. But Health Care in this country is too expensive for what you get IMO. My point is that ACA didn't go far enough. The "public option" was dropped to get it passed (i.e., to get Lieberman to sign it). I'm not an expert on Health Care but I based my opinion on this article...
https://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/02/16/16766/elimination-public-option-threw-consumers-insurance-wolves
I am most definitely NOT an "ideologue" and would never put any ideology above helping people who need it. Above all I consider myself a pragmatist. I'm for what works and what is fair. IMO, this is what Bernie's "revolution" is all about..what works and what is fair for everyone, not just the privileged class.
There are plenty of things about the ACA that need improvement, but having a major element of it originally conceived of by the Heritage Foundation is not one of them. Fair enough, see article I posted above.
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