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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:46am PT
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Warbler!
Before Christ came to earth people were judged differently by God, and likewise for those that never heard of Him/Jesus.
He does make Himself known through the creation- "For since the creation of the earth His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by those things that are made..." Romans 1:20
His divine attributes are seen in the material universe. From the complex structure of molecules to the grand mountain ranges of the world, to the universe itself. He makes us aware of it. Perhaps it is what you are sensing in nature(I believe so).
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 03:51am PT
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Just for the record...Christians do not consider cats, or any other animals for that matter, as being "evil".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:30am PT
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Dr F wrote Karl, what is the message of the spirit?
I was going to write that our intuitive inner guidance varies from time to time and person to person but, you asked me a question and here's what message it brings up for me in this thread...
Believer, or agnostic...navigating this world always holds mystery and uncertainty. We are always going to be wrong to some degree and hopefully learn more as we walk the path of life.
This being the case, it's best to have Love as our rudder and guide. Love, unconditional Love, is the closest experience to God most of us ever have and trusting in Love will breed better results than intellectually deciding what dogma says. God will forgive us every-time if we err on the side of Love and Forgiveness, even if we don't believe in God at all.
Love is magic and every heart resonates with it. Love changes people without trying to while other arguments simply make everyone defensive.
I choose Love and let the chips fall where they may
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 05:55am PT
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...or any other animals for that matter, as being "evil".
Good to know - I'll have to remember to take Treponema pallidum pallidum out of the evil column...
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:22am PT
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healyje- "Good to know".
Rockjox- "............".
That was in response to Mighty Hikers statement- "Someone here once advised me that cats are considered evil by Christians".FWIW
Therefore I responded before it snowballed into....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:47am PT
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Well, as someone with a micro background I can tell you that - whether by evolution or design - bacteria and viruses are just about perfect. What I'm still trying to piece together why god would design some of these perfect killing machines - say viral hemorrhagics (Ebola, Marburg, Lassa) or River Blindness (Onchocerca volvulus - a worm). Whether you get them or not has nothing to do with good and evil or making moral choices.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 06:55am PT
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Just don't blame it on my cat!
She isn't even a Black Cat!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:01am PT
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Ebola is wicked!
I have worked in nursing homes and hospitals over the years as an OTR.
I do not believe God created it. Death and disease was introduced into the framework through decay and death and evil incarnate, Satan himself!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2009 - 07:27am PT
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So satan is a co-equal with god in creating life? And a healthy human body also consists of about 100,000,000,000,000 bacterial cells, most of which we can't exist without. Did satan or god create them? Which came first?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:15am PT
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WB wrote Maintaining large scale industrialized and mechanized slaughterhouses qualifies as atheistic.
So, if I'm a hamburger eating Christian, that makes me an athiest? I believe in god and don't believe in god simultaneously through the killing and eating of animals? I don't see where not following religion by supporting poor meat production makes one an atheist. Maybe that makes you a failed religious practitioner, but if you still believe in a god(s), you are not an atheist. Perhaps instead of "atheistic" you mean "poor religiosity". Laying this at the feet of atheism is absurd.
If we killed them on a small scale in total comfort (bed of hay with soft music) would that be okay?
When I wash my hands and kill millions (billions?) of bacterial animals using industrial chemicals = atheism? Only the immobile, unwashed, vegans are capable of being religious. Do the smallest among us not have souls? Is there a scale here where cows are to be saved but not bacteria (worms, amoebas, viruses, malaria spreading mosquitos, etc.)? Just curious. Where does the soul searching begin and end?
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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Hey Kev, quick theology lesson.
God created Lucifer,
Satan created himself by his rebellion against God.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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According to John Gardiner (Freddies Book) Satan created God.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 10:54am PT
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I thought god was all powerful. Why does god allow satan to exist? Is he not powerful enough to defeat him? If god is all knowing, didn't god know what was going to happen? I'm sorry but the whole thing sounds pretty lame.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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Let the apologetics begin!
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Bronwyn
Trad climber
Not of This World
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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God created Lucifer, who in the begining was a beautiful angel. Over the course of time Lucifer desired more power. Angels have enormous power of their own, under the authority of God. Lucifer rebelled, and was cast out of heaven, along with numerous other angels who were his followers. Now called Satan (to reflect his fallen nature) he now desired to meddle with God's creation. When Satan convinced Adam and Eve to follow him rather than God, all of nature fell under the curse of Satan, since Adam and Eve had been given authority by God to chart the course of life on Earth..that is what their "Stewardship" was about. Adam and Eve deferred that stewardship to Satan; sin and death entered the world.
Satan is currently the prince of this world. Suffering and death (and mosquitos) are a result of man's fall from the companionship with God to the dominion of Satan. Adam and Eve's real and spriritual actions had real and spiritual consequences.
And God DID defeat Satan, through the cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus took the penalty for the fall upon Himself, defeating Satan. Satan knows he is defeated for eternity, and will be ultimately when Christ comes to take over physical dominion over the earth. Until then, he is going down kicking and screaming, trying to take as many people down with him as he can.
This is obviously a very brief and incomplete synopsis of the entire situation. If it were easy, we wouldn't be having such awesome, thought-provoking debates, would we?
There will be a brief silence from my area of the dugout for a while. :)
My workout partner is waiting!!!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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"Someone here once advised me that cats are considered evil by Christians, or perhaps it was Mormons."
Someone was spoofing you, Anders, Mormons have a cat on every sofa (and a dog on every porch)...... It must be those crazed, crafty and crimpestuous J.W.s..... or possibly those Sabbath skewering Seventh Day Catventists.
..... but I've heard from a very reliable source that Krishnas add catnip to their salad dressing.
And if St Peter doesn't allow my kitties through the gates of Heaven.......I'm going elsewhere !
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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But didn't god know what Adam and Eve were going to do? The big guy set them up (and all of us, presumably). "Oh, and don't go near that all important apple tree...hee, hee." Are you really saying he didn't know what would happen? Really? Was he too busy rearranging stars in the Andromeda galaxy to notice?
He allows the world to turn to sh*t and then waits thousands of years to come up with the Jesus thing. He defeats Satan with a human sacrifice? That's his best shot? Like I said - lame.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:40am PT
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I may have posted this before...
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
— Epicurus
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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The Warbler asked "Can you answer the question - seriously - Did God create Satan?"
"Seems Christians often, if not always, sidestep the toughest and most elemental questions regarding their faith, and often change the subject by responding with feelgood trivia."
I can't speak for all Christians on this. I believe Satan was an offspring of God the Father and who rebelled against Him and made war and was ultimately cast out with the hosts who followed him (Satan). Gods greatest gift to his children, next to EXISTENCE, is free agency. But with free agency comes the option of rebellion. Satan chose rebellion.
Our existence on earth is probationary.....or a test if you will. Satan is ALLOWED to tempt us as part of that probation. But infering, from that, that Satan is as powerful as God ?......well, Epicurus was in need of logic lessons from Aristotle.
Supreme authority is with God. Satan will, at the end of this Earthly dispensation, be chained and prevented from warring with God and his children.
This isn't universal Christian belief, so I can't represent it as such. .....But I agree with most all of Skipt's post about God perfecting humans by allowing opposition in their lives.
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