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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
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Could we please leave ISIS in all the ISIS threads...thanks.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 26, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
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Sentience in robots may be a pipe dream, but getting them to the point of intelligent exploration on other planets is not. We're doing pretty well so far. Looks doable.
A lot of work and money has gone into CGI and animation. In addition to generating realistic facial expressions, it might be useful to generate realistic emotions and dialogue, too
I'm waiting for the day CGI is able to simulate to near perfection Cary Grant, Humphrey Bogart, Gary Cooper, etc. There will be legal issues, but that day can't be too far in the future.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Feb 26, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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Interesting post about robot sentience. What would a sentient robot do? Would it evaluate it's own programing based on another layer of programing? This seems like the first stage of robotic mutation.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 26, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
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What would a sentient robot do?
Seek out and read Being and Nothingness. Robot existentialism?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Feb 26, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
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well it's decided
these things are part of our mental understanding;
"no-thing", "nothing" and something
apparently, the "no-thing" and "nothing" only exists because there is something
I think looking at something will tell us more about "no-thing" and "nothing"
or we can accept nothing as an explanation for what the words mean literally,
nothing = not existent.
which would be the most logical conclusion
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Feb 26, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
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The lead researcher said "this quasar is very unique." It's so unique, it was a nothing to us before we discovered it! But now it's unique because we know that one exists, kind of like our consciousness.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 26, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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Most busy and exciting here on this glorious day of 2.26.2015!!
some most excellent spillage from from a bunch of you with the gift of gab.
What IS more exciting than thinking about and predicting of the future!?:)
Paul, thank you! you've been on a streak for a couple days what are you a robot?/lol
i like this one much;
It's almost as if you see the notion of AI is a kind of salvation to man and the return or achievement of the purity that enables us (humanity) to put an end to our corruption.
It's as if AI is the Christ, the messiah that is achieved through the "piety" and effort of science for the salvation of humanity.
Sounds like Christianity confused by vocabulary.
maybe the consequence of rebounding from one piety to another..?
course we have this from 2.26.1502 BCE. ;^)
and the Lord said unto moses, thus thou SHALT say unto the children of israel, ye have SEEN that I have TALKED with you from heaven. Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto YOU gods of gold. An altar of Earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offeringS "S" "S" "S", and thy peace offeringS, thy sheep, and thine oxen: IN ALL PLACES WHERE I RECORD mY NAME I WILL COME UNTO THEE, and I will BLESS THEE. And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone:for if thou lift up THY tool upon it, THOU hast polluted it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
exodus 20.22-26
man! what that has to say
especially today
in the usa
can't help but being gay
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 26, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
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If we include the need to be loved, understood and cared for, something our fellow humans are apparently really, really bad at, then a sentient artificial being that 'knows you better than you know yourself' (as Google already does) would have enormous value, particularly in a rapidly aging population like ours.
this is going beyond gay!
then comes the cry from science to save/fix the problem.
so long as the "I" pleasure seekers keep up on the funding
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 26, 2015 - 10:38pm PT
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What IS more exciting than thinking about and predicting of the future!?:)
maybe Knowing the past to know where your going.?
how about that, talk'in to myself now.
nuth'in new there..
"Goodnight Lord."
Goodnight Mike.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Feb 27, 2015 - 09:01am PT
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anagogical
I toss this delightful word in merely because it has referents to both climbing and spirituality.
I think Free Will carries with it a necessity of self-responsibility. Of course, if we are machines, governed by and subject to the restrictions of AI, then no self-responsibility is possible.
I do not think we have sufficient tools (instrumentation) to measure all aspects of activity within a human. Therefore, to state that we cannot measure a subjective instance of experience may be due to the present-day shortcomings of the scientific method and its instrumentation. It is easy to point to the orderliness of the cosmos and the seasons to use those observations as reason for the existence of a Creator, but I am convinced —by the history of scientific discovery—that there are computational and detection models we have yet to explore.
It is often difficult to measure what is presently considered a subjective experience. If you are ever in the hospital, they will give you a little chart with emotionally-expressive faces on it, and ask you how much pain you have, using the expressions as a guide, so that a number can be assigned to "ouch." Yet, vast amounts of funding and research effort go into the alleviation of pain, while measurement tools for that pain remain at about a kindergarten level. How many other subjective experiences are thus roughly measured or not measured at all?
Should we dismiss all subjective experience that cannot be measured according to the present-day understanding and utility of the scientific method? Should we negate the existence of that which we cannot objectively measure? Love? Compassion? Envy? Anger? We are beginning to tie emotionally-active states to the flow of various chemicals within the human body, but even then, how accurate are we able to be when we barely grasp what we are hoping to measure?
Ah, and as for digitizing a human on to a video such as a movie, that digital impression is:
-an electronic construct based on a script by another person (we may be on to something here, however, to support the notion of no free will);
-a static representation, no more capable of change or creativity than is a still life painting;
-a lifeless artifact, designed for a particular purpose, and unable to boil water;
-a medium of limited impact, having several necessary conditions which must be satisfied to be able to access and review the artifact;
-incapable of any being-ness outside of its rigidly controlled medium.
So, back to free will. I still think I have it, and one way I can measure it is by how effective I am in creating that which I can imagine. As I am able to manifest my individual variation of creativity, I believe that my free will is being activated. As I am able to direct my life, especially when I direct it to outside the lines drawn by this culture, I am expressing free will.
If, on the other hand, my life is predestined, and my responses are electrochemical programming built into my genes, then perhaps evolution is more rampant and robust it its development that we have admitted. It would mean that evolution's electrochemical compulsions led to the Wright Brothers flying machine, agriculture, Tiffany jewelry, and Monet's water lilies, not to mention Scriabin. That Newton and Leibniz were neither inspired, but both compelled by evolutionary pressure.
That you, gentle reader, are a collection of chemicals with some hard-wired electrical impulses, capable of some self-awareness, but limited in self-initiation and self-inspiration, perhaps limited by cultural conditions from which you see no exit. Does this exclusive mechanistic science limit our understanding and striving toward entelechy?
I ask these questions because I think a the future of humans, and how we view ourselves and our capabilities, depends on how we approach the nature of our being. Limiting it to objectively observable and measurable instances of externally-available date seems to ignore the richness and potential of the characteristics which arise from subjective experiences of self. And I don't think anyone is denying the existence of these experiences, but yet, perhaps one is hoping to find a way to ignore the experiences that cannot be brought into the narrow, limiting parameters of present-day scientific method.
And what is uncomfortable about the concept of humans having Spirit? That fact alone admits neither G*d nor Creator, but merely acknowledges the inner life of humans and that there is an observer who observes subjective experience. I think this points to the need for further dialogue concerning subjective experience as a part of human experience.
Thank you
feralfae
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 27, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Should we dismiss all subjective experience that cannot be measured according to the present-day understanding and utility of the scientific method?
If you are looking for a field to do science in, yes.
Otherwise, no.
There are objective ways to assess pain level: groans, grimaces, restless movement, sweating, pupil dilation, and increased heart rate, for examples. However, there is only one real guide to whether a person has pain and that is to ask them. I worked in Anesthesiology and the John J. Bonica Pain Treatment Center at the University of Washington. Simply put, pain is what the patient tells you it is. You should not try to second-guess the patient.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 27, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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There seems to be some confusion of definitions here.
'Spirit' has more than one meaning (and that's OK), for example. One is religious, the other is descriptive. This bait and switch for words having more than one meaning seems pretty common on this forum - I can't understand why people do it - it's pointless.
Regarding evolution (this seems to confuse Paul and Mike to no end) - it produces living things.
Evolution sets the stage for an individual's behavior - providing the equipment and motivators to act one way or another. Does 'evolution produce the Eiffel Tower?'. Well, yes...by providing the biological equipment and motivations for its construction. But building the Eiffel Tower is an instantiation of a collection of evolved attributes, not the attributes themselves. It's also the result of a new form of evolution - the evolution of memes, which include both technology and the aesthetic appreciation of such a structure.
The Eiffel tower, like everything in our world we interact with, does play a small role in the survival of our species - after all, it's a popular place to pop the question - and that can lead to offspring.
Now Katy Perry? I don't know why that happened.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 27, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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Evolution shuffles genetic information so that no two humans are entirely alike, save identical siblings. Even in that case - gestation and environment ensure uniqueness is there.
This pretty much ensures that the surprises will continue.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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Yeah, I can't wait for AI robots. I want one to help me figure out how to work my flying car.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
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Evolution shuffles genetic information
Who is evolution?
You'll make up some bullsh!t for that.
Wait for it .....
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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You won't get a flying car - or a robot car, Paul.
Those are only for the children.
What do we get?
A pine box.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 27, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
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Golem
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Feb 27, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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Go smack him in the mouth. You know where he lives. He doesn't believe a word of his own tripe.
DMT
He should come down to the Josh Fest, so we can give him a proper honorable beating by all those that think he has terrible Camp Fire Etiquette.
He needs a group encounter, not a one on one.
He doesn't belief is own tripe????
Ask him, he believes it with his heart and soul
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